Yes, you must press T the moment it's in danger or it's in danger of wipes.
And yet somehow a regular PaK gun would still be better in overall effectiveness. Rak spam is a low skill bracket meme ability.
Let's be honest, raketen is only ever in danger of a wipe in craters where they clump up (same as every other unit). It's still one of the most survivable AT guns in the game, not to mention it can be played very aggressively. I've seldom seen raketen wipes by infantry, only direct hits by HE tanks when super clumped up. I don't know where this myth that raketen is ez to wipe comes from |
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Comet is one of the best tanks in the game, overall. It's a budget friendly heavy tank with good overall AI/AT. Nothing special but gets the job done, especially in pairs. Good utility too and in a good upgrade path (vision over hit tanks is a Godsend in teamgames) |
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Oh come on. Sturms getting a slight RA buff with veterancy is nothing serious. It would have been a problem if they got vet0 buffs as they are the most oppressive starting unit currently on most maps. But a vet2 bonus is really nothing serious. And Assault engineers are fine. They are nothing special but realistically, they are fine. You can't use them to replace the mainlines but you can use them as a charging unit early on. |
You point them at the enemy, move them close and use their ober-level 0.73 RA and shoot. Unit is very simple and can be extremely difficult to get rid of. You should not expect them to easily beat infantry that come later than them and have a gift basket for you.
A test vs Pzgrens would be more appropriate imho and rangers beat those guys hands down easily with weapon upgrades.
Thanks for the data though, cleared up some misgivings I had regarding the matchup. Will definitely improve my late game play in OKW vs USF, been seeing rangers a lot more.
No problem.
And I never said "easily beat obers". I expect them to lose vs obers generally. But they do not just lose most engagements. They get shat upon by infrared's and you need to charge MG34. You will lose models but Obers will lose (if they don't use nades). Problem with charging is, Obers won't be alone, and a decent OKW player will always focus down the charging infantry, leaving the BAR rifles that supported the rangers, easy pickings for the obers + volks. BARs ofc being only good close to medium range, static. |
Rangers are fine. Thompson Rangers are strong enough, and 3x bazooka Rangers with calliope is already a common cheese strat
I can vouch for ranger zooks. Haven't played them with the calliope all that much but 3x zook, albeit expensive, is a real mobile AT platform that can chase. Having a mobile AT is great in teamgames where the war-crime units like werfers and stukas are plentiful. However, being doctrinal and quite expensive, I do think they are too pricey for going toe to toe against other elites. I'd give them some utility OR decrease the price by 10 MP and 1 pop. Their combat performance is great, and Obers are the crème de la crème of elite units and there is nothing wrong with that. All that said, I still think rangers should get something little extra. Something unique.
I'm going to test them vs PGrens to see where they stand against the weaker elite unit.
One must also take into consideration that full upgraded rangers cost 150/180 munitions. And to invest such large sums of ammo AND to get absolutely sh**wrecked by a stock elite unit in MOST scenarios (eg. MG34 obers are only really good at medium to long range static engagements, whereas infrared shred, giving not two fu*** about cover)
EDIT: And as Kurobane said. 3x rifles + echelon + 2x officer really leads to infantry saturation. One one hand, if you go for less rifles and directly into an officer + ambo, you lose field presence that might get compensated (might being the key word) as the rangers arrive. |
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So I've just tested some realistic scenarios:
Number of tests: About 5-6 of each scenario
Two sets of Rangers:
1) 3x BAR rangers
2) Tommies + 1x BAR
vs
3) OKW Obers infrared
4) Obers MG34
Rangers always vet3 and Obers vet5
I used 10 calliopes to carpet bomb the area (full of yellow cover). Both units were constantly in yellow cover. FOW removed, even before the engagements, both units are in yellow cover and charge over yellow cover. That is realistic for teamgames. Not gonna comment on 1v1 as I do not play that mode nor does that mode have carpet bombing and generally no war crimes are committed there.
3v3+ is where the fun begins and war crimes are left and right and the Geneva convention goes out the window.
I've tested the following things:
First I was testing the 3X BAR rangers
Infrared obers are in yellow cover and Rangers charge in:
Obers lose 0 models and wipe Rangers.
Then I swapped.
Now Rangers are in yellow cover and Obers charge in.
Obers on average lose, but Rangers are left with 2 models on average and very low HP.
Third scenario is where Obers do not charge and Rangers do not charge, but engage at medium distance both inside yellow craters.
Obers eat 3x Bar rangers with max 1 model drop.
Then I started testing 3x BAR rangers vs MG34 Obers.
Here Obers win on long range engagements in yellow cover AND when Rangers charge in.
Edit here: Forgot to mention. 3x bar rangers charging into mg34 obers is not a clear win for obers. they win with 1 model on average and quite low hp...Pyrrhic victory
If Obers go charging in with MG34 into 3x BAR rangers, Obers lose hard (only once did a ranger model drop). But that is just plain stupid for MG34 obers to charge in when you know they will win the long range engagement.
So I've tested 3x BAR rifles vs 2 specific weapon upgraded Obers.
________________________________________________________________________________
Then I've done the same but was testing tommies + BAR rangers vs Obers.
So now I've tested what happens when tommy + BAR Rangers run into infrared Obers:
Rangers running into infrared Obers. Obers dropped 2 models only once, rest were only 1 model dropped. 3 rangers go down even during the charge, 2 go down instantly close range but manage to take down one model before biting the dust.
Now I've tested what happens when Rangers run into MG34 Obers. Here Obers lose. They do take down a model or two during the charge, but once the tommies are up close and personal, the obers get wiped. Once Obers almost survived (1 model low hp left on Rangers).
This one is funny. MG34 Obers driving up to the Rangers asking for some Sausages yields 1 ranger model drop and a wiped Obers.
Of course, MG34 obers long range vs tommies + BAR rangers.... Obers only once dropped one model.
I didn't test the standing engagements of tommies + BAR rangers as they are only ever useful in close quarters. Don't expect them to win anything vs infrared yellow cover or MG34 long range yellow cover.
Point is, unless vs infrared, you need to charge in with tommies.
Which brings me to the following question:
Compared to the Obers, which are stock, should the Rangers get a price buff? They are doctrinal, 350 MP and 10 pop. Rifles are superior to volks but once obers arrive and get vet2, rifles pretty much don't stand a chance. Infrared Obers are monsters if the cover is plentiful.
Not only that, but the abilities of Rangers are quite poor. Except for the great 3x zook, they only have a nade. Obers have 2 nades. One toxic smoke and one bundle, which do not share CD (you can smoke, slow down the enemy and then nuke them). Booby trap and with infrared, the suppression.
Are rangers overpriced?
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Bleed is an important metric, it is just a delayed cost. That is why penals are not great late game, because you pay for using them way too much.
E.g. some guy buys cheap used BMW, but he has no idea, that he will have to invest more then its worth to get the car to a reasonable condition and especially the cost of maintaining that vehicle.
Same with units in COH2, it is all part of the cost and is instrumental part of unit's cost efficiency, in which PFs are clearly in the lead. So yes, they are more expensive and by more expensive I mean initial cost compounded with reinforce cost and conditions that unit is operating in.
Yes, units are completely different, but they still eat up a slot in commander's roster, because there are USF commanders with rangers, paras and even cav rifles and I would get any of those guys over this totally "cheaper then PF" unit.
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And this is one of the main reasons that Ostruppen are dominant in 1v1s. 15 reinforce (or so) is such a low upkeep that you can keep doing whatever you want with them without hurting other timings/units.
You get penals and you do get a great AI squad early game but one that will bleed you dry once indirects come to play |
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This is nothing. This bug on Lienne can also induce a funny sub-bug. If you swap between the bugged unit quickly, the UI will show different abilities. I've had Rear echelons that had the pak howi barrage ability, throw nade, Pershing piercing shot, MG42 incendiary rounds. Biggest bit** was when my KT bugged out and got sturmpio abilities. I've only ever seen it on Lienne |
Can someone from the balance team elaborate why they think these changes are necessary? If what UKF really lacks is artillery, then why are all changes not touching artillery? Add +5-10 range on the arty flares at vet3 or something, and suddenly UKF has some decent form of late game arty.
I agree with the conclusion, but not some of the points you list. No one is going to build another IS because they can be equipped with PIATS or build a cache. Bolster is also not really a "utility", it is a way of scaling UKF infantry into the mid game which other units do by veterancy.
The fact that UKF build orders almost always go into 4xIS is a testimony of how shittily Relic designed UKF in the first place. They don't have any options. Moving RE to T0 was indeed a help to slightly diversify. Unlike other factions, there is no alternative to main line infantry, no non-doc elite infantry (and even with commandos you'd only get one of them), not even really a light vehicle to carry you. From minute 0 to the Cromwell, everything is IS by design.
But even if we want to move some utilities from that list to other units: Where to? REs? UKF is one of the few factions that can play without pioneers until the mid game. The officer could take the smoke arty, but this leaves UKF with a huge gap in artillery and smoke. This ability replaces the missing mortar in the line up. Other factions can get fairly early mortars with very decent range for smoke and barrages, restricting UKF to only one unit with less range to call it in would need compensation by making this ability stronger. Same thing goes for the sniper.
Point is: Smoke is a crucial mechanic. Restricting it to a unit where you can only get one of, would induce more balance changes. Also, if this ability is so crucial, you won't get more diverse builds. UKF players are now forces to build 3xIS into officer instead of 4x IS. Better unit diversity? Yes. Better build diversity? Nope.
Simple really. It's a quasi-feeling. Go throughout the patch history of the brits and you will see nerf after nerf. In steady, small doses. Ratio of nerfs to buffs was >1 and so patch after patch brits had more substantial nerfs than buffs.
Now they try to undo it in one large sweep, and feels like the brits are getting large buffs out of the blue.
Basically the expression "Brick by brick and you get a palace" |
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Anyone defending the ST is either a mo*** or just depends on it to win the matches. AVRE needs a similar treatment if it becomes OP. The only saving grace is that AVRE is in a horses*** commander.
You can't have a nuke dispenser that can self spot and shoot beyond the 35 range. Well, if it had 640 hp then sure. But with 1440 hp and 240 armour, yeah, no. Imagine, a vetted ST can shoot up to range 48 and spot to range ~40. Shooting 14 AOE nukes that completely wipe everything in it's AOE.
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