Directly comparing the Panther and Comet is a bit like comparing an AT gun and a mortar (inb4 ZiS). They simply aren't intended for the same job.
For a fair comparison you would absolutely need to place them in the context of a full army build (As with almost any unit, but for dissimilar units moreso)rather than worrying about their individual performance.
That said, I think it can be, and indeed seems to be, agreed that the Comet is superior in AI performance (And utility), and the Panther is in AT performance.
Amen to that. |
Should be removed "because I said so" and you mean consistency, like removing rec dmg from rangers, because it wasn't explained enough on how it works only to give it back next patch to grens? That is the consistency you speak of here?
Is it consistent that USF can't equip 2nd LMG despite them having 2 weapon slots and m1919 taking 1?
Is it consistent that healing between faction is all over the place in terms of costs, availability and how it actually works?
Sorry, there is no magical "consistency" in the game, only individual cases.
So you're saying extra nades should go from mp40 and weapon slot being given instead?
You're fighting the windmills here. Let it go. At the end of the day, no matter what you say will change allyboo's or wheraboo's mind, especially not General V's. PPSH Cons packet is lackluster, especially with better upgrades. The cons themselves are fine. PPSH upgrade should maybe at some utility or rework some utility on cons, especially since cons have to purchase flame nade and AT nade separately. Other than that, I see nothing wrong with them being slightly inferior in terms of DPS to axis close range upgrades.
Anyway, just don't argue with people that will not see reason. |
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I just want the redesign of the USF base to happen. On average, I lose 5-10 seconds just by the units retreating in place in the pizza base as Felix so eloquently put it. It's annoying AF. Those 5-10 second retreats pile up in one average 3v3 game. God forbid you need to blob your way out of a encampment and will thus retreat a good chunk of units after the job is done. USF is a strong faction, even in 3v3 (4v4 it's weakest, too much arty fest and [super]heavy tanks.).
Don't know why people complain about USF, it's strong and balanced. |
I think the issue is that you still need 1-2 Jacksons to fill the AT department regardless of the situation because the Pershing alone won't cut it. USF also has relatively few snares (usually 3 RM but late game might need replacements due to wipes + it is by far the worst snare in the game), practically no mines or late game stun abilities plus a ATG that does not help much against late game armor (unless you spend all your munis on it). USF is prone to being pushed and overrun because there is not much back up.
Your build for team games at least would likely consist of 2 Jacksons + Pershing + 2 RET for repairs. That was possible when the Pershing carried the AI department so the remaining 40 POP of Riflemen and team weapons don't have to do all the lifting. With the AI nerfs though I feel the Pershing is incredibly hard to fit into the build. Better just get a Sherman on HE shells and PaK Howie/Calliope instead. Saves resources, population and micro since your Sherman can crew repair. That's why it dropped out of favor in my opinion.
Regarding a similar Axis setup with Tiger, P4, 2 ATGs and 2 Pios (1pio plus base repair for OKW) it is slightly heavier on MP I think, but way better on fuel and especially popcap.
Yeah, Pershing used to carry the AI department. I still play it regularly, but now it's just meh. It does more consistent dmg to infantry than an opposing tiger does to mine, but it's not by a much. 1 shot more consistently I would say. I don't mind getting 2 REs to repair it but the durability on it, HP pool are piss poor. It does have slightly better agility than a Tiger but not "80hp/30armour/better ROF" better. Definitely does not substitute it.
I usually don't get 2x jacksons in teamgames, I get zook rangers and 1 jackson along with the pershing so that extra 6 pop cap is used on something that I need. You could pop cap cheat with the jackson, but that is just micro hell, especially when you need to reinforce and the enemy might push. Micro hell. Pershing is in dire need of slight buffs. |
I main OST and that CE is OP thread and replies were proper facepalm m8.
It doesn't matter who you main. You can adore OKW and OST and still be quite open to balance discussions. I main USF and I love playing with it and I do admit that calliope does need some rework. Achpawel actually wrote a good idea back on that thread. I don't care who mains what, I only care that people do not spew BS about some units being OP or UP, when common sense tells you they are not.
It all goes back to that old "the losers will complain the most". Right now, axis are the biggest losers complaining about everything, from CEs to God knows what else, the recent 20 threads are a [non]living proof of that. There are people, you among them, that state facts and argument things intelligently...then there are the likes of some people that will just bury their head in the sand and yell AXIS/ALLIES OP.
I personally do not think OST as OP. They have their advantages and in teamgames they are a nuisance, especially late, but I've managed to win against top 10 Arrange Team back when I started playing USF competitively... That's why I laugh at people saying that USF is dead in teamgames. Each faction has it's strengths and weaknesses. From my point of view, the current game balance is excellent. Nothing really stands out. The 5man grens are strong but not unbeatable. OST late is very strong, with Brummbars and Panthers...gives them a hail marry attempt to close the game when behind, still...not unbeatable (this I speak for 2v2+ modes).
People just refuse to adapt to the conditions. They think that if they build a panther when they see the enemy fielding 2 jacksons or SU85s and then expects the same panther to somehow kill both tanks....well... then you see a complaint on this forum how Panther has low accuracy on the move and therefore is bad at killing tanks. Not mentioning above average HP, armour, penetration, speed, acceleration. Just "accuracy s***", please buff.
Losers gonna complain. Whether ally or axis..... Losers gonna complain... |
Well, one probably shouldn't think that losing a free crew is worse than losing an engineer doing the same job (such as the OKW sturmpio, for example).
Actually, it is. Only you can recrew it, you lose a lot of time and resources trying to get it back up. You need to crew with rifles, then decrew while REs build, then put them back inside. RNG will be RNG. Losing pio is no big deal, losing sturmpio is a big deal. But then again, sturmpios are quite durable with their target size. Plus they wreck every unit early game. |
am i the only one who uses my completely free crews to heal my other armour when needed?
I assume everyone does it. A lot of micro needed and you do lose field presence when they are repairing. I remember losing 3 of my repair crews to a random LeFH shell that was a product of huge scatter. I still have nightmares of LeFH when all my squads wanted to do was repair friendly armour |
Can U imagine it being buffed and supported by Jackson(s)?
That's a lot of popcap next to 3 rifles (most used opening), 2 real echelons, AA HT, maybe AT gun, maybe rangers, ambulance. Pak howi is needed in case of emergency blobs... If you plan to fit Jacksons with the Pershing next to that, good luck. Maybe on some 150 popcap maps.
You don't have to test it, I can tell you that you can have 1 pershing and MAYBE 1 Jackson, depending on what you have lost during the game. I seldom have squad wipes. If they do occur, it's due to some RNG mortar shell or RNG rifle nade from grens (that rifle nade will either wipe a spread out squad or barely damage a clumped up one, it's really RNGish). So if I don't lose anything and I have 3 rifles, officer, 1 or 2 pak howis, AA HT, ambulance, one ranger zook squad.
So that infantry + team weapons + AA HT comes out at 80-90 pop cap with Pershing. So that leaves 10 popcap for JacksonS and ShermanS. Good luck.
True story: I used to team kill my own units sometimes so I could fit a jackson on the field next to the pershing cause the game was getting prolonged and a couple of recon planes spotted massed tigers and panthers. You know that point in a 3v3 game where nobody can really do a push or flank cause it's 3v3 and not 1v1 and there are a sh**ton of units on the field. Well, axis are at an advantage here cause their heavies > usf/brit heavy. If you don't have a soviet player on the team, you really need to end it before the game reaches a point of "fuel is not a problem, pop cap is".
EDIT: the "fuel is no longer a problem" is dangerous vs good axis players. Bad axis players will just run in your units head on, taking the first hits and dying and crying on chat how Tigers and KT are useless and super weak compared to TDs which CAN kill them. A good axis player will mass tanks, have a couple of obers/pgrens, something to repair and blitzkrieg your ass. I've seen people throw their grens/volks, raketen, pak40s, etc. and just let them die. It took me plenty of lost games to realize that they were just opening up the pop cap for more heavies. Now, when the game has reached 40+ minutes, and the enemy is just capping points without any respect the the lives of those men, I know what's about to come. A LOT of times you would kill their expendables, only so that 3-4 minutes later you encounter a Hail Marry of tanks on your flanks/front, everywhere. Now, if axis starts using that old Soviet technique of "Meat Grinder", I just start pushing to their base. Most of the time they are NOT rebuilding the said units but bluffing. That's my own experience.
So no, you won't fit multiple jacksons in an average game, next to the pershing. |
The undervalued part of the barrage is the fact that it makes a player resetup they team weapons such as an at gun or mg thus allowing for tanks/infantry to close in without taking damage. If it is timed right, the ZIS's opponent has their key units rendered useless for a crucial couple of seconds. This will often create the advantage that will lead to a won tank/infantry/combined arms engagement - often the advancing units will mop up the resetup weapon or make it retreat. Unlike grenades the risk of "eating" the barrage is too high and you can't use such tactics with even full health team weapon. Having said all that I would move the barrage to vet 1 (to make the player invest some resources into inirect weapon such as a mortar - this would make them have fewer infantry squads on the field - or one fewer AT gun), or simply make the barrage be paid for every two shells to make "eating" it possible - in such case there should be current cooldown so that a ZiS player can pay more to fire the next two shells.
True, but IF and only if, there are not supporting infantry/vehicles near. If an MG43/34 is sitting alone and minding it's own business, guarding a point, solo, then spending 30 (something like that) munitions for a barrage to retake is a good course of action and not a balance problem. If ZiS is barraging supported AT guns, MG42s or whatever, then conscripts or penals won't really be able to just charge in before they re-setup. At that point, grens, volks, maybe obers or some other elite infantry will be MORE than enough to buy time for the MG or Pak or whever to suppress advancing infantry/halt tanks.
3rd option. Your MG42s and Paks and whatever are supported by infantry and vehicles and the enemy decides to charge in, starts with barraging. At that point, unless the AT gun can both barrage and fire at tanks, it's a full scale assault. The winner is the person which can control their units better and perhaps flank or fake retreat or bait or something. Again not a balance problem. He's spending 30+ munitions (at least) to dislodge you. Barrage ain't free. You can use munitions for whatever you think would be best to stop the advance.
So in all 3 situations, as long as the AT gun can NOT fire both HE shells and AP at the same time, like some magician, and the barrage is not free of charge, then it's not a balance problem. Only thing you can balance is the cooldown on it, but I guess not by much, cause it's a dual role unit, not like the crew needs to sing a lullaby to the gun to cool it down so it can fire again. |
It is a normal mg imo - the tradeoff being larger crew and mereability. I feel that those suggested two front entities will also increase its vision a bit making it less vulnerable when solo guarding map fragments. I'd wait for the patch and test before any other changes are applied. One step at a time (lots of previous patches were 2 steps and it was too much).
Agreed. Maxim is the worst of the MGs. MG42 is the best, then 50cal, MG34 and Vickers are pretty much the same with the vickers being better in buildings and MG34 having better suppression performance overall. Maxim has 0 "pros". However, this does not warrant heavy buffs. Slow and steady, perhaps. It can still do it's job. With lower performance and lower arc of firing, the main selling point of Maxim should be fast deployment/pack-up. Maybe buff that and keep the overall performance the same. |
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