I am excited about this concepts, but some moments i would like to hightlight here:
- UKF M3 from the new doctrine should be like current M3 with dropweapons, not like USF one. There is two M3 in the game, no need to make third one. It's confusing.
P.S. How picked SVT-40 will work on Penals? Zero effect or what?
During one version, we actually thought of having the assault infantry section upgrade only give stens, and the halftrack would be a lend lease version of the weapons halftrack youre referring to. This one would drop zooks (insead of piats) and thompsons (instead of vickers lmgs; this would have been how assault sections or even sappers got their thompsons).
Currently the svt pickup does nothing for penals, but later on it will probably be either locked out for them, or give them ppshs. |
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In the current set up I personally end up having all 3 officer unlocked. If the officer did not come with the first unlock but with second the change would be actually close to original design when one usually ended up with 2 officer. The timing would also be closer to original design.
Actually Lt used to cost 300 and Captain 320 they ninja buff to 280 with the latest patch, they do come with Thompson, smoke grenade, shared experience, no tech weapons and other abilities.
So then you want to worsen a faction's design because of how you personally choose to play the faction? If you're going double officer, you build your mainline around that fact. Don't get three rifles - the new system allows you to viably go only two rifles.
Also, I know LT used to cost 300 (I thought captain used to cost 300 too...). It used to be slightly undercosted because of the BAR (300 manpower is preferable to 280/60, I'm sure most would agree). Now that it has no bar, its roughly worth 280, which is what they currently costs. Regardless, it doesn't matter what they USED to cost because their current value is around 280 manpower. What I said was both correct and relevant. What you said was also correct but also irrelevant. |
If you want to troll pls do not quote me.
If you want to mention history thou I suggest you get your facts right, USF where actually very strong for quite some time and it was actually the buffs that other faction received that left them behind.
Strong for reasons unrelated to teching or their tech structure. They were strong in spite of it, not because of it. When USF no longer had its crutches removed (armor company, rifle company), it was considered weak. |
Why would removing the officer from the first part of the tech need then to be cheaper? 200mp isn't really a whack of mp- Soviet shell only 40mp less from the word go and don't have the option for flexible or frankly useful infantry unless they do. Soviet also need to drop 240mp*2 to field proper tanks on top of the 160mp again with no free squads. The officers don't need to be gifted for it to be balanced, allowing them to be purchased along side the mg/at gun and yknow, actually something you want would go a long way I think.
Because 200 manpower is 200 manpower (and really, the officer is a 280 manpower squad). You don't need to draw comparisons to other factions because they're entirely different and you could go on forever. "Soviets have flamethrowers," or "Soviets get 6 man squads," or "Soviets have mines." Just compare "new" USF to "old/current" USF. It's a 280 manpower nerf compared to current usf centered around the early-earlymid stage of the game. If you think USF needs a nerf around that time then say that instead of drawing some incomplete comparisons to other factions.
Personally, I don't think you could do a 280 manpower nerf to any faction (without buffs elsewhere) without making the faction underperform. |
Actually my suggestion was that the officer comes with the second unlock and not optional.
We considered that and decided it would be worse than the current system.
Forcing USF players to have an officer early on is better than forcing them to have an officer later on. The early timing of officers was chosen because that way they don't come out AFTER you already built all of your mainline units. Previously, you had to get 3 or even 4 rifles before you teched...at which point you would be stuck with 4 or 5 infantry squads - usually more than you wanted. Attaching officers to the second unlock would bring that exact issue (that I would say we managed to fix) back. Now, you can build two squads then the officer, or very comfortably build three squads before your officer.
Basically, that suggestion brings back one of the key issues we wanted to fix with the rework, and even besides that, I honestly can't see what benefits it brings. |
I am simply providing my opinion on how to improve the game in forum that exist for that reason.
Which isn't quite the issue. The issue is that you seem to think expressing the specific opinions you do is more helpful than it actually is. It sounds harsh, but the point is that expressing practical (by that I mean ideas that can actually be implemented) ideas is more helpful than expressing ideas that may or may not be "correct" or "for the best." Because if the ideas don't actually fit in the game or can't be reasonably brought into the game, then they're just that - ideas.
And I was simply responding Sander93 argument that moving officers too 1.5 tech is too much work, if someone starts to do a task one should probably have the time to finish it or one runs the risk to create as many problem as he solved.
And I wouldn't personally say my section above is applicable to this suggestion; I don't think it is too much work to implement. I would, however say that this would probably make things worse. Theoretically, making officers optional (purchased individually) would increase build diversity. After all, you can now choose to get 1 less core infantry squad. But that's not how it would work out in practice as far as I can imagine. USF currently gets their weapon team tech + officer for 200/35. Now that that doesn't include a squad, you probably need to make it cheaper, and therefore make weapon teams come earlier or allow USF to hold more manpower for their team weapons. At this point, instead of getting cav rifles or assault engineers or riflemen... I could just rush and spam 50 cals...why would I want to do anything else? OKW certainly doesn't have the counters to that, and forcing ostheer into a counter is forcing them into a loss anyway. Build diversity has now been lessened, and axis factions are no longer allowed to use infantry against USF from the start of the game...not an improvement imo.
Fine, then you just nerf the 50 cal. Well, with its instant set up, you either turn it into a maxim (lol) and gut its suppression (clarifying that the break point is whether or not it suppresses in one burst, which tends to be a binary line between really strong, or useless), or get rid of the instant set up...or turn it into a vickers/mg34/mg42 copy. So now USF has a lost a mechanic that makes them unique (officers free with teching), had their HMG gutted/turned into a copy of other faction HMGs, and finally, if you do all of this correctly, you don't destroy what build diversity there is with USF... and for what gain? |
The Facts simply disprove you. Since Relic stopped the monopoly in patches OKW have been redesign, Soviets have been redesign and now USF have been redesigned. Up to an extend Ostheer and UKF have also been redesigned. That magnitude of changes has been at least equal if not greater than Relics times.
Relatively safe reworks that have had very little outside impact? That's what the USF redesign seemed like. I mean, the USF redesign came down to "split the tiers, switch the stuart and AA half track." That initial stuff took around a week (was it two?). Even then, changes as small as that ended up in a lot of work on the back end. A multi hour discussion on how we need to adjust tech prices now. Another multi hour discussion spanning a few days on whether or not we can remove officers from teching without taking away too much of USF's identity (yes, its something we considered). Another multi hour discussion on whether we can push officers to the .5 upgrades of each tier or not. Another multi hour discussion on whether or not having officers being purchased can work (to make up for this nerf, initial tiers would be manpower-less). A multi hour discussion on how LT having the BAR brought too much power and meant that LT would always be preferred over CPT because of it. Fine, we finally have the test build ready for release after 1-2 weeks...
Well now we just screwed over airborne. A multi hour discussion on CP and cost adjustments for airborne's weapon teams. Later, a multi hour discussion on recon's airdrop. Cool, we lowered recon's CPs now... and made the doctrine super overpowered. A multi hour discussion on how to fix recon.
This is a simplification, but you seem to think that these redesigns "just happen somehow." They don't. What started with "lets split the tiers and switch the AA HT and stuart" ended up necessitating 10+ (probably quite a bit more than that, tbh) multi hour discussions to accommodate those first two changes and avoid screwing up the game. Even then (evidenced by this very thread), some people still aren't happy with the result. Arguing design principles and how things "should be" is cool because it allows you to discuss things that sound cool, even if they're bad ideas in practice or are much more complex than they seem. You don't have to think about the consequences when you argue this way because you can just hand wave issues away or hide behind some more theory. When you look at things more practically or try to actually implement these changes, then you can't hand wave or argue away issues that changes cause.
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The main issue is Riflemen vs. Volks meta where they're 30mp more expensive, but weaker at all ranges than volks but close range, so in most situations (long / mid range) in cover volks win the earliest engagements.
[citation needed] |
Since I have been part of all the alpha and beta groups, I am actually in position to know and not just "think".
You should probably check this articles and get more informative opinion:
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/PeterQumsieh/20150115/233644/Balancing_Multiplayer_Games__Intuition_Iteration_and_Numbers.php and some other of his articles...
Forgive me if this sounds a little confrontational, but what stock does being a part of the alpha or beta feedback group have? Unless I'm misremembering, balance and faction design was all over the place for COH2's release, so being a part of the group responsible for that doesn't seem like a selling - quite the opposite. I guess I'm also confused as to why you're implying that previous, early COH2 design decisions that happened to coincide with a pretty unbalanced game should be what we aim towards. Fair enough, Relic had THESE design principles early on in the game's life...and look how well that turned out. If anything, examples of previous Relic design principles seem like an example of what doesn't work and what we shouldn't be aiming towards. From what I can tell (I want to emphasize the fact that it's hard to tell for sure), people generally seem to think that the past 6 or so months of balance have been the best in the game's entire life (...perhaps ignoring the time right before WFA were released, but I'd say that's not relevant since they only had to balance a single matchup, not 6). Does that not suggest that moving away from these design decisions has been for the better?
This is the part where I get especially confrontational/personal. You were a part of a test group that happened to launch what was a pretty poorly balanced and awkwardly designed iteration of the game, at least in my opinion. Maybe you gave great feedback and were ignored. You could have been a great asset that got talked over by others or ignored - thus resulting in a poor game state in spite of your feedback. If that were the case, however, why were you not further personally consulted with on the game? I could be mistaken - you could have been asked to contribute beyond that, but were too busy with other things to accept...though I do personally doubt that was the case with just how active you are on the forums. But if you were a valuable alpha/beta tester with good feedback that led to or would lead to positive changes, why were you dropped/not brought back on to a feedback group? And to restate my first paragraph, why look to design decisions from an era of the game that people hold in disdain? |