First off, are we assuming 4v4s here? Are we assuming the best case scenarios for the elephant and brummbarr? Because I can think of countless maps where elephant and brummbarr are terrible.
In a head to head battle these units are unmatchable. In reality, they have many weaknesses number being poor mobility combined with a front facing turret.
In 4v4 they can seem OP because they're weaknesses can be covered by their allies. On the other hand, they're weaknesses can also be exploited by the enemy.
For example, a single player can't take out a brummbarr elephant combo on his own because if he tries to dive them he'll get taken out by the other axis players also passively defending the flanks and rear.
On the other hand, the Allies can also observe the elephant and brummbarr sitting defending one point and decide to all rush it together with one fell swoop and the elephant won't be able to retreat to safety fast enough.
Why do people never get elephant and brummbarr in 1v1s and only get elephants and brummbarr on very specific 2v2 maps? It's because the elephant is slow, cant react to the movements of the enemy and therefore requires a skinny open map with few shot blocks so that it can be easily bababay sat by the commander and his ally.
The problem here isn't the elephant or the brummbarr, it's the lack of coordination in 4v4 randoms.
My suggestion ---> coordinate with your team or play smaller game modes if elephant brummbarr combo is too rough.
Most of what you said is true and very valid, except I kind of take issue with a couple of points.
1. The statement that some maps are terrible for the elefant/brummbar. This is because it basically validates things like, say, double 1919s because there are some maps that are awful for that too.
2. The statement that allies should just coordinate better with their teams. It's sort of a double standard in the situation, as the axis team just has to be not idiots to defend the heavy td on their team, while the allied players have to be both competent players and pretty well coordinated to take it out. You say it yourself at one point: "because if he tries to dive them he'll get taken out by the other axis players also passively defending the flanks and rear." The axis just have to passively keep playing the game and doing their own thing, while the allies have to coordinate a large, high risk tank assault that also leaves their own territory open to attack. |
ITT: Arguments for more OST nerfs.
If you have trouble dealing with a Ele or a Jaghtiger in a 4v4 setting, then you are doing something very wrong.
FFS, those things are slow and cumbersome, and are extremely vulnerable to Artillery or zooked up infrantry.
Hell, even 2 good micro'd flanking T34s will deal with it
Well sure. If it was alone. But no, there's three other players whose armies are all probably brimming with fausts and who probably have tanks of their own too. |
How about people start posting replays of how Elefant/Brum combos wrecked the game and they are super OP.
I think a lot of people would love to point out where you needed to L2P.
I wreck with elefant/brummbar. Usually end up carrying crappy teammates though so I might still be in placements for teamgames as ost. |
Note I pretty much only play 3v3. This is actually what I have been doing. My build order is Rear echelon, Mortar, Riflemen, Fighting position. Lieutenant does have a very long tech time, so my first MG is in fact a fighting position. The fighting position allows me make a stronger front line seeing only buy ONLY ONE riflemen. (yes only one riflemen, crazy.) With this additional manpower not spending on 4 riflemen you can invest into MGS or you go Lieutenant or Pack Howies if you go Captain. Additionally I have been going with the doctrine: Infantry Company, not the Calliope Company. (Again crazy)
Here is what my build order looks like for Infantry Company
Rear Echelon: Really helps with early field presence in capping points especially for a brit ally.
Mortar: Good at removing those early MG 42s and garrisons
Riflemen: Can be swapped positions with the mortar
Fighting Postion
Lieutenant
M2B HMG
M15
Ambulance
Weapon Racks: Give your Rear Echelon 2 bazookas first for AT. Give your Riflemen, LT, Capt one Bar one 1919 Lmg. These units can act like your elite infantry especially if you equip the Officer suppression bulletin
Evenally you will want these
Captain
2 Mortar Half tracks A very powerful and very underrated unit.
2 M1 At guns
Priests
For builtins I use:
Officer Rally: The Lieutenant, Captain, and Major reduce the suppression taken by nearby infantry units by 6%.
See The World, They Said!: Rear Echelon Troops fire 1% more accurately and their rifles cool down 2% faster between shots.
Cheap Team Weapons: The M1 57mm Anti-Tank Gun, M1 75mm Pack Howitzer, and M2HB .50 cal Heavy Machine Gun are 5% cheaper.
Huh. Very interesting builds, I'll have to try them out in 3v3 sometime.
So it the end, ideally No major, one riflemen, and no calliopes, Trust this strategy does actually works. By sinking your fuel into these early game assests you gain a substantial foot hold on the field, and the M1 At guns and Zooks can handle medium armor. By the time Heavy armor roles out, your teammates should have proper counters to them.
Airborne can also borrow this similar idea. Though you will want to get major tech for Jacksons for a late game fuel sink. Barfinders with an officer buffer can be quite strong. Just only build one pathfinder. They have a 37 reinforcement cost.
For my third slot I actually have Rifle Company. (Wait, still no Heavy Cav, or Calliope?! I must be insane.) Just give the Captain, and Riflemen the bazookas and Rear Echelon the Flame thrower and Bar.
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With the popularity of the JU 87 Loiter and recon aircraft, I found the M15 excellent in shooting down the crafts. I have been playing around with the M15 a lot recently. Granted I pretty much play 3v3 so gameplay is structured differently than 1v1s, 2v2s, and 4v4s. Keep the M15 alive, say making it guard flanks and points, and tanks will have a hard time to kill it if you apply pressure to other areas with riflemen. Since it is in the LT building you can also place mines with the M20 to lure tanks into a trap. Recently in my 3v3 games, I have playing around with very weird builds. Since blobbing is common I double down on my MGs. Having 2 MGs to hit a blob is quite effective.
Huh. Infantry must get nowhere when you got two .50s and a m15 (for a grand total of 6 .50 cals lol). M15 does tend to shoot down planes almost instantly, which is very useful, and nets it vet real fast, especially if they forget and keep calling in planes. I've been wanting to go M15 + m20 but it's so manpower expensive. I think I gotta find a better doctrine to do that instead of heavy cav or airborne (one without elite inf). Any suggestions? |
In the replays from the GCS, someone got to 9 kills before losing it. I used one in a randumb 4v4 and put it in front of someones MG42. It fired on the MG42 for probably 30 seconds before the player realized that it was firing at him. He then retreated without losing a model. That was at point blank range. Don't try that if the MG42 has the incendiary rounds. I don't get that many kills with it now.
The only time that it seems to make sense to get a Stuart is if Ost has a flamer halftrack, and then its job is just to keep you from bleeding too much.
M15 can kill flamer halftracks pretty well too though, and is much better against infantry. I remember once I went after a guys sniper with it and got it down to half health before he produced a pak on the spot. We were playing ring atound the Wehrmacht quarters though, but still, this went on for however long the paks build time is, plus the whole retreat back partially on a road. |
Stuart is honestly kinda meh, I don't build them anymore and just rush straight for Sherman while holding out with RE zooks and Rifle AT nades. In the light vehicle department, I just get M20 for the insane utility it offers to me. And I don't see a lot of players building the Stuart anymore. I might consider it when I go Captain vs OKW who built Flak HT and Ostheer Flamer HT(although extremely rare). Scout Cars are manageable and Luchs can be shooed off with 2 zooks. I kinda feel that the Stuart is too helpless against infantry right now, because it almost does no damage to them while being only a soft counter against vehicle and I'm not sinking 70 fuel for a light that sucks at both.
Ok so I'm not the only one whose Stuart drops literally like 2-7 infantry models in its lifetime. Flaktrack in my experience actually does really well against scout cars as long as you get the autocannon firing fast, and I have heard that it can finish of a luchs (how reliable is that though?). I really love the m20, but paying 340 manpower and 70 muni for a car with a .50 cal really does hurt. |
Anyone who builds more than 2 newbvolks is easy to beat, its someone who knows how to mix it up early that is a problem.
As USF just go for 3 Rifleman and Double BARs, followed by the Leuy with a BAR and the AA Halftrack. If you get a 50 Cal and put it in a building or other static position you are doing it wrong. Your 50 Cal follows the Riflemen around and engages the enemy with attack move just as if it was a Rifleman itself.
More than 2 volks is bad? Never heard someone suggest that before. Three rifles with double bars is a lot easier said than done, as that's 360 munitions right there, and that's if you use 0 grenades or other abilities, single bars is doable, but then you might be vulnerable to luchs rush without a stu or zooks (if you go lt). The part about the .50 is definitely solid though. It's always how I've played with it, taking advantage of the high mobility. |
Thats a problem on all factions, im always seeing blobs from both axis and allies walking straight into mg's and overrunning them. My problem is that you only accuse OKW of this but its something all factions can do.
OKW are heavily reliant on volks because ther support weapons are weak, just like riflemen for usf. OKW late game is far superior to USF late game, but its not a problem about OKW, its just USF late game is just so bad. IMO they need a non-doc late game call in like the KT, i wish the Pershing at least can be calling after all techs were upgraded or something needs to happen to ther lategame
I must confess, I think I misread you. I thought you were an axis player who immediately set out to just tear down instead of helping or discussing. Blobbing is definitely a problem for all factions, but IMO, it is the worst with okw because allies don't have as easy access to blob counters as ost and okw to some extent do, and okw blobs tend to be the most cost-effective, a hugely beneficial trait for a blob. That's my opinion, I'm no expert, just based off my own experiences. |
So go Lt for 50 cal, get 50 cal, then go Captain
The fuel timing will be perfect for axis vehicles and you'll get 2 squads while teching up, one with a bar, the other which can be given zooks. There's no problem at all but 3 minutes of wait time.
So I'm guessing with that strategy you would skip making light vehicles or elite infantry at all and focus on team weapons and rifles until shermans? Interesting. My focus has always been on light support from vehicles and team weapons with combat infantry serving as my bread and butter. Do you actually put zooks on the captain? He does have the sprint and I think a massive reload vet bonus. |
Bleb Feesh
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