The issue at hand here is the timing of the luchs and how it contributes to maintaing the okw snowball effect. Stats are not relevant here since most agree the performance of the luchs is not in question.
This is a gameplay issue and no one is more qualified (on this issue) than coh2's GOAT.
Most of my perspective comes from watching top level players such as Vonivan so I would be quite interested in hearing their views.
For the record I don't particularly like the solution of an increased build time. Rather i see a fuel increase as more appropriate as it not only delays the luchs, and prevents the cheese of duel luchs but also makes trying to cut off okw have a more meaningful impact. As things stand atm in is almost impossible to prevent or signicantly delay okw from getting a luchs unless the okw screws up quite badly.
How is that any different than ostheer getting on your cutoff with a 251 flamer? it'll arrive around the same time, and fills a similar role. The difference is ostheer is the only faction which requires combined arms and isn't brain dead A move infantry like the rest. |
That is correct, but I feel if you just remove all smoke rifle nades without any compensate, the tables will just turn and it will be very frustrating to deal with multiple HMGs and snipers as USF.
And then you look at OKW  |
If we are going to take Luvnest's opinion as the bible, who do we ask, then?
Me, vipper, cruzz, multiple pros, sturmpanther, dangerous cloth, A soldier just to name a few. Not everything we say is perfect but I think these people i've listed have shown they can offer valued input with minimal bias at times.
although i havn't seen vipper in awhile  |
People we have talked about regarding Luchs -such as Luvnest and Dave who we consider to be good players- their main issue with the Luchs is the fact it arrives too early in the game compared to other light tank/light tank-esque vehicles hence the change. Originally I suggested the Mechanized and Luchs both get 15 seconds on their build timer, though people would just plop down the Mech truck sooner.
If anyone has a better suggestion regarding the early Luchs timing, feel free to put it in.
That luchs arrival time nerf seems way too hard. Especially for 2.0 possible final iteration of the preview. The issue with luchs as I see it currently is the perfect meta, as well as some faction design flaws.
Luchs runs rampant because 19/20 penals will not snare it, USF requires vet 1, which you may or may not have based on fighting, and UKF require the boys AT rifles. The luchs is an AI light tank, it is supposed to be strong vs infantry when used correctly.
Handheld AT bug is fixed, which will indirectly nerf all vehicles.
USF can go captain for an AT gun, or rely on zooks. UKF will always have access to the 6 pounder, even though they don't have snares. Soviets will now spam conscripts and probably go T2 for maxims and a zis. Cons also have AT nades and oorah.
Allies light vehicles can all deal with the luchs. And I mean every single one aside from the M5 meatgrinder. M20 mines, AAHT (difficult), stuart, AEC, T70, Su76.
The meta will soon shape to be able to counter the luchs more effectivly. So I don't think such a drastic change was needed last minute.
OKW currently crutches on mechanized to keep their momentum or you lose to the stronger infantry of the allies once they get upgraded and obers arrive to late. Maybe with the HMG34 buffs and LeIG rework it'll allow for med truck, but if it appears to be too weak OKW will be wiped from 1v1 ladder.
I agree with dangerous cloth. 60 seconds would have been a fine change if anything.
As much as I like luvnest and dave, more goes into being a top player than just knowing the game. You need to be good at micro, know counters, vet etc. If you excel at one of these areas you can theoredically compensate for maybe a lack in other areas. Such as having excellent micro but not knowing stats and chances to pen etc. Nothing against those players, but I don't think they'd be the absolute best choice when coming to balance arguements. |
The issue is not the performance of the luchs as an anti infantry unit. The issue is allies, usf especially do not have a suitable counter when the luchs arrives and as such the luchs can often just drive around almost uncontested.
The problem starts with the kubel, (sometimes multiple kubel) which not only gives okw the resource advantage through superior capping capability but also the added benefit of constantly decapping and/or cutting off allied factions. So okw can virtually tech straight to the luchs where usf is constantly being cut off and delayed. The situation is often made worse once the luchs arrives because usf has no hard counters, only soft counters, so okw can maintain the snowball effect while usf struggles to keep its head above water.
To the okw fanboys who wish to argue to the contrary, keep in mind it is not skill if you have an advantage.
The problem starts with the kubel, so to fix luchs rush the kubel needs to be adjusted. Personally i see 1 kubel as manageable but would like to see a nerf to its decapping speed(add it back later with vet if necessary). Secondly I would like to see a fuel cost added so that building more than one has real meaningful consequences if it goes sideways. It should not be possible to spam multiple kubels, only to lose them carelessly and then follow up with luchs spam. Its ridiculous.
To compensate for the fuel cost I would increase starting fuel to allow for one kubel, then increase the cost of t1, t2 and associated vehicles. This way building multiple kubels will delay light vehicles. The cost of vehicles could be adjusted depending on the desired arrival time.
Zooks? m20 mines? AAHT? Stuart after like 2 minutes? Kubel is getting a respective armor nerf, which makes playing against them much more tolerable as USF |
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That luchs arrival time nerf seems way too hard. Especially for 2.0 possible final iteration of the preview. The issue with luchs as I see it currently is the perfect meta, as well as some faction design flaws.
Luchs runs rampant because 19/20 penals will not snare it, USF requires vet 1, which you may or may not have based on fighting, and UKF require the boys AT rifles. The luchs is an AI light tank, it is supposed to be strong vs infantry when used correctly.
Handheld AT bug is fixed, which will indirectly nerf all vehicles.
USF can go captain for an AT gun, or rely on zooks. UKF will always have access to the 6 pounder, even though they don't have snares. Soviets will now spam conscripts and probably go T2 for maxims and a zis. Cons also have AT nades and oorah.
Allies light vehicles can all deal with the luchs. And I mean every single one aside from the M5 meatgrinder. M20 mines, AAHT (difficult), stuart, AEC, T70, Su76.
The meta will soon shape to be able to counter the luchs more effectivly. So I don't think such a drastic change was needed last minute.
OKW currently crutches on mechanized to keep their momentum or you lose to the stronger infantry of the allies once they get upgraded and obers arrive to late. Maybe with the HMG34 buffs and LeIG rework it'll allow for med truck, but if it appears to be too weak OKW will be wiped from 1v1 ladder.
I agree with dangerous cloth. 60 seconds would have been a fine change if anything. |
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Welcome to heavy flamer tanks. Best advice is mines and wait for patch when the croc is nerfed. |
I still have to spend another 90 fuel on that upgrade, surely that has to be factored in, I haven't found loads of T34 76's to be cost effective in the long run, the SU 76 was more about showing a counter to light vehicles to put my opponent off getting them as well as the arty ability, it wasn't to counter anything, I got it because I wanted it rather than to counter a unit my opponent already had, is that fair?
It isn't necessary to have a preemptive tank destroyer to deter a light vehicle. Since a medium rush will have a similar effect because your opponet most likely won't have a vehicle that can compete with yours. The extra 90 fuel isn't much if you remove the su76. That's 75 fuel IIRC? |
why would i spend it on tier 4 when I'm using lend lease? the Su 76 was my tank destroyer. I was told to do that by a top player, is it wrong? also why is the fuel cache start wrong in this game? I had good early game field presence and map control? Its an advantage gained by leading with cons, I dont do it all the time, but in this game I got away with it surely.
For example, you got an SU76 when you could have afforded 2 T34/76s. The latter is significantly better in all aspects except the tank destroyer role. The point though is that during this point of the game your opponet didn't have armor, so you didn't need a tank destroyer. Now I beleive you got this because you wanted artillery because you saw his T4 going up. An SU85 can sight for itself and begin to attack the schwer at max range, and then you could've supported with a T34.
Next point is the M4C shermans. While I do enjoy these shermans they're not nearly as cost efficient as the T34s. The main point of the M4Cs is that you don't need to tech T4 to call in the M4C, which in turn saves you the teching cost. If you already have your tech down, you can still call in M4Cs but you need to understand why you are. M4Cs have slightly better pen, significatnly better on the move accuracy debuff, and with vet insane rate of fire. All of this is in comparison to the T34/76. However the T34/76 is in contrast significantly cheaper fuel wise, which allows you to field more with less fuel, and they're still a significant threat.
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I feel the MG34 gains veterancy a bit too quickly when using incin against low armor vehicles like the m15 AAHT. 2.5 bursts and it gains a full level of vet. |
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