And even there...a situational ability not necessary shit.
Get m20, get RE, replace RE with vehicles crews, get paratrooper thompson for the crew, 18.56 near dps each one for a total of 4 thompson litterally copypaste of para
At vet 3 they go from 1 RA to 0.7 RA.
All for 200 mp and 90 muni, more efficient than assault engineers.
You can't do that because the M20 crew comes with a Bazooka, that locks the Thompson Upgrade. |
If the USF player spend all his fuel on dedicated AT units, then you have different windows of opportunities like Tobis said.
Yeah in my experience infantry wise OKW and USF are evenly matched until you double up and hit Vet3 with your Rifles, even then it will be a battle of atrition, if you don't get some regular Shermans to support your Rifles eventually you will still lose even if you mass enough M10s to deny enemy Armor entirely. |
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PFs are hilarious when used in a blob, hard to wipe and will erase anything that isn't a heavy tank that it's in their way, I remember when I thought OKW was about specialized units due to representing late war Germany that was short on Manpower. |
when you know your timing was right and it's not
like when you knew you can have your time with very first sherman then you forgot that there always a command panther
Ah yes, when you need the Sherman to help control the OKW Blobs, but it gets countered instantly by a Call-In vehicle. |
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I can't remember precisely but mostly 2vs2 games vs Double OKW.
1vs1 when I lose it's usually a stomp that ends quickly. |
It's not really the luchs that's OP or any of the OKW units, it's just that USF has to shoot itself in the foot to deal with the luchs. If you go for stuart to hardcounter they shove an Ostwind down your throat. If you go for bazookas or ATguns then you will be losing to the call-in infantry.
USF is a faction that is designed around being hyper aggressive and forcing a response from the other team. The really strong call-in meta lets OKW turn that on its head and USF is just not equipped to deal with that right now. Everyone assumed the next patch would fix the problem when scope opened up, but now... 
So the easiest way to explain it is that OKW is just better at doing what USF should be doing?
As of late in the few 1vs1 games I've played and won vs OKW it's always the dice rolling my way or the enemy throwing away units. |
Because only allied infantry should have good received accuracy bonuses?
Rifles have a target size of .97 to start and -23% at vet 2 and -15% at vet 3.
Yet that is not op but Volks having -10% at vet 1 and -10% at vet 3 is?
Because its productive when you ignore cold hard stats and call him a troll because you don't have anyway to back your beliefs up?
Rifles cost more, can drop their weapons and are the main selling point of their faction, OKW has Obersoldaten and plenty of call in elites should Volks fall short.
Remember why Lelic buffed Riflemen RA to such high degree in the past?
It wasb because otherwise Rifles couldn't sustain the engagements they need to fight lategame where their veterancy and double upgrades make them USF's elite infantry.
The issue with Volks and USF is that they punch above their weight, that on top of the irksome Kubel+Sturms combo really gives OKW an edge on the stage USF is supposed to be strong, if they are stronger than USF both in the early and the lategame it falls down on the OKW player making mistakes to allow USF back into the game and that is just not right. |
The fix isnt that simple imo. Vet 0 volks vs vet 0 rifles/IS are probably right where they should be. Lowering damage like that just messes up an established dynamic that already works well and makes sense. I described the changes id like in another thread though.
Which one? I wanna read your thoughts on the matter.
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Lol.
If you look at ZombiFrancis' last post, he just said that he was basically agreeing with me and that you were wrong. Surprised at how you read a post in which the poster backed up my claim and said that yours was wrong, then decided that he was agreeing with you. Guess you'll see whatever you want to see; not surprising since you either completely make up stats or present them entirely out of context.
The fact that Vipper, ZombiFrancis, and a player who is top 10 on the 1v1 leaderboards for the factions he plays (even with frequent computer crashes, sucks losing 3 entire ranks from a single crash) all disagree with you should you give you some idea where your argument stands.
Individual volks models have (negligibly) better dps at max range than riflemen (both at vet 0). Individual volks models have better dps at all ranges than cons. Individual volks models have better dps than infantry sections at close range. Argue cover bonus all you want, but everyone knows that the cover balance is situational while the extra model that a volks squad gets counts for a lot and isnt conditional. Lets not forget that infantry sections and riflemen cost 30 manpower per squad more, and that penals are generally outnumbered because you have to construct a t1 first.
You would expect riflemen to beat volks because they cost more and because the entire faction that theyre a part of was built around them. You would expect infantry sections to win against volks because they cost more. The fact that volks have slightly better dps per model than riflemen at long range means youre factually incorrect, and means that volks have a situation where theyre better than a squad that costs more and makes up a larger portion of its faction's power budget. The fact that volks will beat an infantry section in cover at close range, or an infantry section out of cover at long range also means that they have scenarios where they punch above their weight.
You're saying that WFA core infantry has better dps than volks. I've replied that it depends on whether youre talking about per model or per squad. It is an undebatable fact that the theoretical dps of volks is better than the theoretical dps of infantry sections and riflemen in certain different mixes of range, sometimes per model or per squad.
Vet complicates the argument, but everyone (or nearly everyone) agrees that volks have better vet than the other WFA core infantry. Everyone (or, again, nearly everyone) agrees that the stg upgrade is far more accessible and far more efficient than the other WFA core infantry weapon upgrades.
It's really hard to get a decent/productive discussion going when youre dripping in condescension upon your first reply and constantly making up (literally making up) stats to support your views (ex: "it's not relative AT ALL if both long AND close range dps are higher for allies, it means that the dps curve is always higher"; again, volks FACTUALLY have a higher theoretical max range dps than riflemen and have a higher dps at close range than infantry sections). As much as I'd like to put the argument to rest, it's obvious that at this point, you'll just form a reply and fabricate some entirely new "facts" to attack me, after which 2 other posters and I will tell you youre wrong (just like this time). It's taking me far more effort to disprove all of these literally made up stats than it takes for you to just pull them out of nowhere, so I'll stop here.
Now that's a beautiful post that can explain why so many people "hate" on Volksgrenadiers, they should go back to doing 10 damage per shot among other things really, they have too much value for their cost. |
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I do love how all the arguments about how USF can stand up to OKW this patch depends on you outplaying your opponent, they being worse than you, or you getting Lucky.
I'd listen to what Tobis said, as he plays both faction and knows better, even when you win you just don't have any fun when playing vs OKW as USF because you are always on the backfoot unless they throw away key units like their starting Sturms or their 1st Luchs. |
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