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This way, both assault grenadiers and hull down can be reworked, a "new" unit would be added and the Tungsten voice lines could be used. The Tiger Ace can still be added and reworked in the OKW commander.
Imo this is exactly what the new commanders patch should not be aiming for, it should not try to balance other commander. It should focus in creating a balanced commander that adds something new and interesting.
A commander that improves both infatry (assault grenadiers, extra training) and Tanks (heat rounds/ hull down) should be avoided simply because instead of increasing the meta it tend to replace the meta. |
Once more,your are going semantics, I will simply not follow down that road and help you to derail another thread. |
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You've got that as wrong as its humanely possible.
Mainline infantries do NOT have all the same role.
You are going personal again and semantics, I will simply not follow down that road and help you to derail another thread.
The role is "mainline infatry" so all mainline infatry have the same role...
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Shouldn't Conscripts be the mainline while penals the elite infantry, like Grens/PzGrens or Volks/Obers?
At least is what the description says.
I can't imagine a bunch of criminals being the mainline infantry of any army.
They used to be.
The role of each unit does not really matter as long there is room for both of them in an army composition and not having to spam on or the other. |
First of all, cons and penals do NOT share role, because cons are not long range squad that sacrifices durability for firepower and numerical superiority for ability to fend off any other single squad 1v1 in early game.
There is a difference between the role of a unit and the tools to achieve it.
Penal are mainline infantry.
Conscript are mainline infantry. They have the same role.
Second of all, if penals are op to you, despite the fact they arrive latest on field of all mainlines and have highest cost of all mainlines, meaning they will always be outnumbered unless opponent under produces own infantry, while having no AI weapon upgrade contrary to all other mainlines, when I'd love to know how batshit insanely op volks are to you as they have all the perks while sacrificing nothing for them.
Penal are one of the strongest infatry for their time frame. They simply too powerful for their time frame. |
Regardless of volks cons need something late game. Even ostroppen now have something to keep them attractive late game cons have nothing but vet which is a moot point of your are building them late game.
Cons spam hasn't been viable for years outside with an at the time over performing ppsh upgrade at which point, a commander where at least 20% of its abilities are focused on making cons better make cons see more use...
Cons are good with certain doctrines but they should require a doctrine to be able to make use of your mainline infantry. There's no other unit in the game that is dead weight unless you pick a commander.
Actually no.
They need a clear role within the Soviet army.
Currently the share the same role with Penal while Penal being OP, a simple buff will not actually work.
(Osttruppen don't actually work late game the LMG upgrade is an average solution at best) |
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Basically this. Please stop trying to somehow 'discredit' the cons/volks comparison just because you don't like it and it shows how obviously busted conscripts are as a choice.
250mp T0 starting unit for OKW = Full Game usefulness, Doctrinal Upgrade available
240mp T0 starting unit for SOV = Short term poor, Long term trash, doctrine just to make them sort of useful at all
Conscripts need to be a long term mainline infantry if they are going to have any use. We've been hearing 'oh but utility' for six years and in those six years conscripts have never been a useful long term investment as anything besides merge fodder.
Since the problem is the conscript/volks relationship it is the volks who need adjustment or else you break the conscript/grenadier. Then one would also have to fix the new Penal/volks relationship.
Actually that is incorrect, conscript spam was viable tactic for years. |
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A) Imo the new commander should focus creating just that. New commander that are interesting to play. They should not attempt to "fix" other commander that have the same abilities.
This the revamp patches have proven that ambitious aim end up in mediocre result.
B) Imo the new commander should expand the "meta" and not become the "meta". In order to achieve that their power level should at the appropriate power level for each faction. |
Counterpoint: Volksgren spam is stale and they should be part of an army composition.
OKW have a wide variety of early and late game infantry, both non docntrinal and call-in, as well as support weapons. There should be room for all these units to be a part of the army composition.
It is not acceptable that Volksgrens have incendiary grenades, fausts, can build cover, and get a weapon upgrade that lets them scale into the late game.
Volks do not need to stand on their own as mainline inf. Please nerf volks.
See how absurd it sounds when you replace conscripts with any other core infantry unit?
Only problems with your theory are:
1) I never claimed VG are fine on the contrary I have repeatedly posted against the ST44 even before they where released.
2) Soviet have a much more versatile built order and tech tee and far more doctrinal call-in options than OKW and basically all other factions. |
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Cons need to stand on their own as a mainline inf, they need to be able to do something of consequence by themselves, they need to deal damage, and not just stand around, get shot and throw shittier versions of flame nade
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No they should not, conscript spam was working strategy and the game was stale.
Conscript should be a part of an army composition not the army itself or a stop gap to call in units.
Soviet have a wide variety of early, strong, call-in infantry and support weapons and there should be room for all these unit be a part of the army composition. |
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