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Thread: Forward retreat points.6 Jun 2017, 10:48 AM Can somebody explain to me how did we come to the misconception that having access to FRP magically makes your blobs more punishable to artillery than not having access to FRPs? If anything, FRPs give you access to an additional retreat point you can use (the other being your base). If your base gets barraged you have nowhere to go. If your FRP gets barraged, np: just deactivate FRP and hit mass retreat to your base. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 5 Jun 2017, 19:14 PM Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 19:06 PMpigsoup i'm against engineers getting vet by repairing. not all vet needs to be easily accessible. So what happens when WFA enter the mod? Do we remove Vet2 repair speed bonus from everybody, or do we give everyone some alternative to gain that vet? Currently, I can't think of any other way for Pios to gain vet in the late-game, if they haven't already. WFA engineers have no issue gaining vet even at that point, since they also double as combat units. Without giving everyone fair access to their massive +60% vet2 repair speeds, EFA is always going to be on the backfoot. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 5 Jun 2017, 13:50 PM Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 13:44 PM0ld_Shatterhand I did not know, that the accuracy of the Stug and the Su76 was the same, it probably feels so different because of the greater range of the su76. So I stand corrected here, but I still think its a bit too high, so both Stug and SU76 acc should go down. I just tested the SU76 out of curiosity against the p4 at max range, and out of the 40 shots I counted not a single one missed nor bounced. Considering the damage buff at vet 2 and the rate of which it gets vet, the SU76 is scary as hell. 3 Penetrating hits against the tiger and already vet 1, 3 more and vet 2. At least the Stug has to close in, to get this amazing accuracy, Su76 can just stay at range and snipe everything. If you lower the accuracy about 20% and the stugs about 10% I think it would be still worthwhile building considering the amazing price timing and utility. Another matchup I tested was Stug and Su76 against IS 2 and Tiger. While the Stug has no chance at all, even at close range almost half of the shots bounce Su76 snipes the Tiger easily. Yes, there are bounces but way too few to ever consider buying a Su85 to deal with it. Also as mentioned before the veterancy gain is just broken, Tiger is not even on half health then the Su reaches vet 2. So either Tiger armour should go up (which might create problems elsewhere) or SU pen should go down significantly. On the barrage, I don't think increasing the reload between shots in the barrage solves the problem. I might have been not so clear in my last post, so I try again. The problem is, if you barrage at close range, the shots from the barrage come out immediately because the gun doesn't need to be raised. Also, you can end the barrage at any time and start firing immediately at a tank. At max range, the barrage is already delayed, because the gun needs to get in position. This delay should be consistent at all ranges and should apply at the end of the barrage as well. After some thinking about Survivability, I can agree with you. Considering the price of the Su76, Panther and Tiger should incentives Sowjets to bring a real TD. You are right. Basically, the SU76 has something like 50% less XP needed to attain a veterancy level compared to the Stug. For penetration, we'll have to see what a Stug-like penetration curve would look like. I Haven't looked at the scatter profile differences between SU76 and Stug. The scatter profile might also have something to do with SU76 accuracy. I'll try to see if something can be done about the barrage at close ranges. In the worst case, we can just increase the min range of the barrage. Playing with projectiles is a bit tricky. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 5 Jun 2017, 13:38 PM The main issue behind SU76 might just be its vet2; in addition to increased damage, the SU76 also gains +30% accuracy, which means it becomes impossible to miss anymore. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 5 Jun 2017, 12:02 PM Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 11:32 AMVipper Having the same accuracy but 20% more range means that is actually 20% more accurate... The chance to hit of all 60+ range TDs need to go down weather that mean lowering accuracy or size or both. Imo TD should have around 90% chance to score a "natural" hit at range 60+ vs a Supper heavy and around 50-60 vs a medium tank. Technically, the SU76 is 8.3% more accurate than the Stug at range 50. The difference in accuracy becomes narrower in different ranges. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 5 Jun 2017, 11:13 AM Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 10:56 AM0ld_Shatterhand After some more extensive 1vs1 testing here is a list of problematic units. Su76: Before the barrage nerfs it was completely obvious that the unit was batshit op, but after the nerfs the true problem emerged. The unit itself is just too accurate. Out of 20 shots at max range maybe 1 or 2 misses against a p4. Paired with the high rate of fire the penetration nerfs don't matter. Even if every second shot bounces you can deal massive damage thanks to accuracy and rof. I would never build a su85 considering the low armor of the Tiger and the low cost of the su76. On top of that, the su76 has a good barrage. All in all the only weakness is the 400? HP pool. So it gets two shotted by the new Panther and Tiger. The stug in comparison looks like complete garbage. It has lower range, is less accurate and slower. More health doesn't mean anything if you can kite all day with the su76. The SU76 may very well be batshit OP atm. That's probably not because of its accuracy though; it has the same accuracy as the Stug. The SU76 deals reduced damage compared to the Stug (120 vs 160), and has fewer hitpoints, but it does have increased range and better mobility. If the SU76 continues to be OP, we'll just nerf its penetration further. Having the SU76 occasionally bounce vs a P4 from time to time at max range, is probably not going to be the end of the world. However, making SU76 bounce more often vs Tigers etc is the way to go. In the late-game, the SU76 has two jobs and two jobs only; countering medium tanks, and harassing infantry with the barrage. Live-version SU76 has garbage accuracy, which meant it would never be able to compete vs medium tanks, if we lowered penetration. Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 10:56 AM0ld_Shatterhand What I suggest: I really like the support oriented approach for the su76. It should have decent at and decent ai for cheap. With that in mind, I think you could rebuff the barrage, but make it so, that it requires planning. First, it should not instantly activate and second, there should be a punish by driving up to the su76 and shooting it. The barrage can be powerful, but only if it's punishable. So introduce a setup and tear down time for the barrage ability. Maybe 2-3 secs for setup and 1-2 for tear down. Of course, the values should be tested but I think you get a general Idea. Then it's time to nerf the far accuracy, and maybe even the penetration could go down a bit as well. Every 3-5 shot should bounce on the p4 so closing in would be rewarded. (same approach as the stug). Finally to address the annoying two shoot potential late game I would change the vet 2? reload buff with a +40HP buff, so it survives two panther/tiger shots but still gets down to 3 pak/stug shots. And maybe add some barrage cooldown/shots fired buff. After this changes, there would be a clear role for the su76 and the su85 and not much overlapping. Su85 would be pure hard AT perfect for countering heavy armor with good damage and accuracy, and the su76 would be a mixture of light AT, and a mobile Howitzer, perfect for killing light vehicles and holding mediums at bay. We can probably increase the reload time between shots in the barrage. That way, if the SU76 really wants to unload its gun, it should remain stationary for longer time. About survivability, it depends greatly on what Panther's role should be. With the current direction, SU76 gives a hazing to T3 builds to "incentivise" OST to lay off the T3 spam and build Panthers. Then, it's the turn of the Soviet player to lay off the SU76 spam and build an actual tank destroyer. Panthers (with their long reload time) being able to two-shot SU76's should be enough of an incentive for the Soviet player to stop spamming SU76's. At the same time, the SU76 should be decent vs medium tanks, otherwise people would probably altogether skip the unit. Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 10:56 AM0ld_Shatterhand Penals: Penals are still problematic thanks to their vet. If you loose a grenadier squad later on you have almost no chance of revetting it. Penals at vet 3 just walk up to anything and annihilate it. Also Mg dont stand a chance once one or two vet 3 Penals attack it. The nerf to moving dps was a good first step, but in the light of buffed conscripts, far dps should go down a bit, so grens have more of a chance at long range. (It shouldn't be something drastic, only a few percent) Another problem is the availability of the targeted satchel charge without buying Ptrs. Before this change, Penals had a clear weakness, Vehicles. Right now this weakness is more or less gone. With the pathing as it is, one single mistake can cost you your vehicle. This makes light vehicles extremely frustrating. More than once my 222 got stuck in a hedge, wall etc. Also you cant be aggressive with a 250 against penals, onc satchel and its gone. I would suggest locking the targeted satchel behind the Ptrs upgrade so you have to sacrifice firepower to get some AT. After all, that was the designed weakness of T1. Or at least lock it behind the AT nade upgrade. Let's see what the moving DPS nerf does first. At the moment, we're still wondering whether people will ever buy Penals, when they could simply invest in Conscripts instead. Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 04:57 AMCon! Stug-e's aren't that far out of the meta and with these changes would easily make its way back in. Wouldn't you say that locking Tiger behind tech would already solve the issue of Stug-E -> Tiger meta? The Stug-E is vulnerable enough to vehicles that you can easily counter it with a Stuart/T-70 nowadays. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 5 Jun 2017, 10:56 AM Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 04:02 AMClassyDavid Being able to gain EXP from repairing is against what veterancy is suppose meant to be, a way to reward people who use tactics, strategy, and skill to earn it. There should be no reward to repair a vehicle as there's no risk or thought as it really does take quite a bit not to lose a tank unless it's a light vehicle that can be two shotted. Losing any squad and it's vet should be punishing and I understand you want to try and give the player who lost their engineers a chance to earn back again. However, CoH2 is all about unit preservation and wiping a vetted up engineer unit should be rewarding against a player who has any armor force in not just manpower lost but the veterancy associated with that engineer unit. The stream of XP you gain from repairing vehicles is small. Getting a fresh engineer back to Vet2 (which is the only vet that matters for engineers), will require you to spend about 3-4 minutes repairing tanks with that squad, or something. (Repairing tanks with multiple engineer squads means that each squad will, individually, spend less time repairing = less XP). You can't use repairs alone to get back to Vet2. However, those XP points will sure help you in the longrun. Rewarding aggressive play with engineer XP will achieve the following: - You're going to reward players that play aggressively trying to break pak-walls (given that pak-walls cannot finish off tanks) - You're going to incentivise the defender to have flanker tanks nearby to potentially pursue wounded tanks. Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2017, 10:42 AMCyanara As for Ost heavy tanks call-in reduction being tied to T3, that seems like a very minor improvement over the current situation. We might see some T3 units, but if you have a Tiger commander then T4 will probably continue to be forgotten. That's only speaking academically though. I'd have to play to see for sure. It's tied to BP3 not T3. Researching BP3 (to get your Tiger) means that: - You're 100MP/25FU away from T4 - You're 140MP/40FU from T3 Note that Stugs can no longer assist you that well vs heavy armour, and you're crutching on the Tiger entirely for that. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Forward retreat points.5 Jun 2017, 10:47 AM Jump back to quoted post4 Jun 2017, 23:44 PMelchino7 FHQ: Change it from a toggle, to an active ability. 2 mins cooldown, 1 min duration ability. Now you actually have to time it and use it with some thought behind. Anything that narrows the window of FRPs will still promote the idea of human-wave attacks. Because, let's face it; if people blob, they're going to hit that mass retreat anyway. It's better to just get rid of that mechanic altogether, see how the factions perform without it, and compensate with something else if needed (e.g., ambulance speed, IRHT/Stuka forward reinforcement, medics for Brits, etc). In: COH2 Balance
Thread: How to make shell explode without hitting the ground5 Jun 2017, 10:43 AM Actually; remove the deathtimer/alive thing I told you earlier (i.e., set them to 0). Instead, look at the action-apply-ext of the projectile. There's something there that executes to make the shell visible. You could try wrapping that in a timed action (fire and forget: true) for X seconds, and see if that makes the projectile "disappear" after a while. In: Modding and Tools
Thread: How to make shell explode without hitting the ground4 Jun 2017, 23:39 PM I know next to nothing about CoH1 modding. However, when I asked Nachocheese he tried to explain to me that airburst was implemented different between CoH2 and CoH1 Have a look at this mod: https://github.com/xxpatch/consmod And have a look at the projectile for the "elefant_airburst_barrage_weapon_mp" is implemented. I've set both deathtimer and life_time_while alive to 2 (still not sure which one does what). If your shell doesn't disappear fast enough, set that thing to an even lower duration (e.g., 0.5 secs). If that doesn't work, then feel free to copy what I did for the Elefant barrage: - I have one weapon that fires the visible shell (that disappears when it reaches above the intended target) - I have another weapon that fires an invisible shell that does the actual damage and the explosion visuals - Finally, I have a 3rd shell that fires once to coordinate the visible and the invisible shells In my case, the Elefant gun cannot aim high enough to cover all possible ranges. Therefore I had to limit the barrage to 60-70 range to make the visuals "believable". For your case, the "visible" shell and the "invisible" shell should share the same arc characteristics. The "visible" shell should die while airborne (you need to see how much time you need for that. The "invisible" shell will have to stay alive (but invisible) until it can collide with the desired target. To synchronize the shells: - Make sure that there is no randomness (min aim/reload/whatever time = max) - set collision to tp_sticky (so that neither shell will collide with anything on their way) In: Modding and Tools