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The purpose was to nerf handle AT: Piat/zooks/schrek. And it might have work with schrek and piat (they miss between half and a quarter of their shot per game) but failed to prevent rangers zooks spam since they have a bonus of damage and penetration with it + 3 zooks which overpass the slight size adjustement. |
Well I wouldnt say PGrens are dedicated close range, the damage curve of the (pgren)StG implies medium range specialist. If you compare it to the thompson, you'll notice that while the Thompson has an edge out to around range 16, the STG has the edge from there to max range. Between the two, that long range capability makes the StG far more ubiquitous and a superior weapon if you could equip a bunch of squads with either.
While the Thompson does have a better damage curve and dps then the MP40, it exists on units with either a limited number of them(assault IS, cav rifles) or exists on expensive elite infantry coupled with a hefty upgrade cost.
I think both have a decent place at the moment, and if the mp40 is underpowered or the Thompson is overpowered, it's only by a very small margin if at all.
After some test I think you're right for those unit, but I really find Panzergrenadier are in a weird spot since the proliferation of CQC units, a rushing ranger thompson always win against a stationary Panzergren, which shouldn't be the case IMO. |
The carbine was already a great weapon at all ranges so Relic buffed "elite" Thompson profile at mid range so that it was a downgrade from the carbine.
What a stange logic. |
Main difference between Ranges/PAras Thompson and MP40 is the high DPS of Thompson at MID range which closer to that of an assault rifle.
Although some SMGs like shocks PPsh have also seen the MID DPS increase.
regarding to the curve of the PPsh, if the starting point is lower, increasing it's midrange DPS doesn't make it quite comparable to the thompson and therefore is not a big issue.
I don't know if STG is a bit weak or Thompson a bit too powerfull, but IMO the ratio between these 2 shows the problem among CQ units and "Assault unit".
The difference between submachine gun (MP40,Thompson,sten,PPsh) / Assault Rifle (Bar,STG44) / LMG (mg42,bren,M19..) in terme of DPS Curve isn't clear. |
Im fairly sure the thompson upgrade only gives 2 thompsons instead of kitting the whole squad so not really a fair comparison there. All the DPS calculations on Coh2db factor in reload and burst.
You are also comparing the max vet thompson to the vet 0 panzergrenadier stg which is misleading since the PGren stg has 23 dps at max vet. The para Thompson has 18.4 dps at vet 0(not 24).
Oups my bad, I tried to overlap those 2 but apparently failed.
The point is that STG DPS start with lower value and drop faster than thompson (starting from 5 range which is strange but ok). Same system was applied to PPSH/MP 40 but has lower DPS from the get go to compensate.IMO the problem lies here.
And yes the kit gives 2 thompsons, but with the approximation that Sten=MP40, my idea remain the same.
But I don't know which "thompson" is given to AS. |
Well I think to problem is more the power of the Thompson Upgrade which is incredible, according to https://coh2db.com/stats/#, close range (lower than 10), Thompson (took from rangers squad since they are 5 man squad) has 24 DPS while de MP40 has 15, plus the MP40 has bigger reload time and smaller burst. For comparison, a squad of Panzergrenadier with STG44 has only 15 DPS close range.
While this upgrade was only on paratroopers/rangers/assault guard there was no problem because it's performance fit the elite-infantry role, but such upgrade is now on Assault section (UKF) which are the british counterpart of Assaultgren and therefore outscale them hard. |
-pick infantry doctrine if you want to spam them
-start taking notes on how Luvnest plays if you prefer other doctrines
-play soviets or brits if you want additional man on mainline without going doctrinal
All that thread to come back to the starting point. |
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So, what conclusion do we have for grens? |
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The fact is there is no reason aside from "the sake a making it in line with allies" to nerf the Panzerfaust.
But there is plenty to keep it as it is. |
Penal blobs haven't been convincingly scary in years. "Oh no you bleed even more than your opponent now, and Rocket arti will keep you in your base perma reinforcing". They hit like a truck in the early game, albiet with much lower field presence than going T2, but drop off very fast.
Perhaps delay was the wrong wording. It fires painfully slow to start, which might as well be a delay. Its like the US rocket loiter in paratroopers, without the amazing other abilities to somewhat justify its mediocre performance.
By delay I mean that the shot is fast enough to hit at least heavy tank. As for the penals blobl, I haven't tried it myself, maybe i will find some replay for u |
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