Pioneers are not unnecessarily weak, I disagree with this fundamentally. Pioneers reinforcement costs are slightly too expensive, but for what they are supposed to be, their combat abilities are fine.
Assault grens would be called in even if tier 1 was required for them. In fact, we see some builds going for MG42 a gren AND an assault gren.
I can agree fusiliers have a lot of overlap with volks, they both upgrade to mid range weapons, they both start with bolt actions, they both have snares, they have the same reinforcement costs. This is not the case with any of the other units you mentioned.
"By your logic why not make all bolt action rifles sound the same since it does not matter?"
If you think this is what my logic indicates, then you should read and re-read what I wrote so you can properly understand it.
You stated that because stormtroopers lack a "unique weapon" they don't stand out, implying they are not useful or worth purchasing over stock units. My refutation of your statement was that that a unit's weapons alone do not give the unit all its utility.
By YOUR logic, nobody should ever build conscripts because they lack a unique weapon (being identical to combat engineers) and don't "stand out".
I'm very confused by your "rocket arty" assertion. How does the optimal engagement range of a unit dictate the speed at which a unit can retreat from a rocket artillery? If two rocket strikes are called DIRECTLY on two separate units-one that is advancing and one that is static, how is the advancing one disadvantaged? If it's because the arty could be firing in its retreat path, that applies to both squads.
Finally, if you are trying to use panzergrenadiers like stormtroopers, then you are using them wrong. Panzergrenadiers are mid range specialists. They are your generalist infantry capable of engaging at any range, but with a slight emphasis on close range, and really shine as screening troops-something that their vehicle proximity buff really emphasizes.
Stormtroopers do not function in any of these roles. Seriously, what the hell are you using your stormtroopers for? Frontline assault?
The unique attributes stormtroopers bring to the table-exceptional CQC dps, passive self healing, faster decapture rate then normal troops, commando type stealth, extreme wipe potential with tactical advance, the ability to lay booby traps, the ability to basically twoshot caches, and one of only two stock ostheer units to have smoke.
If you can't figure out a useful way to utilize this unit, that's on you.
Pioneers combat ability is not fine. Even with a perfect engagement they still generally lose. A unit in the early game that can not fight is generally worthless. In 1v1s where units are spread out and only really on their positioning they can not win. In team games where groups of enemies they contribute nothing. Assault grenadiers fills in an unnecessary void created by the lack of T0 Grens and weak pioneers.
Sound is huge problem with confidence and convey damage. We have the mp40 sound used by the lack luster pioneers and weapon teams defense weapon for years now.
People generally keep their rocket arty in one general location. Longer range units can easily force a rocket unit to move inorder to fire, delaying it. Alternatively if it were in range, the rockets have more travel time to their target if the unit is a long range dps unit rather than a close range unit. Travel time is the key from when the sound of firing is first heard to impact time.
Panzergrens are better at flanking then Stormtroopers. Able to engage at longer distance put more damage on target. Their mid range damage allows to be much better at close range because then can drop a model faster and quicker. Their more general purpose thus making superior.
I do not deny Stormtroopers have good damage, they are very out shined by everything else. Their three doctrines that they are in even support other units better. Stormtroopers with G43s are hands better then the SMG upgrade. Encirclement doctrine has ambush camouflage making the Panzergrendiers even a better option plus grenadiers can get into the stealth ambush game. Infantry Stormtrooper have to contend with grenadiers and pioneers whom offer more durability as well as damage.
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There is a massive discrepency in damage output even between 5 man pios, and stormtroopers. An mp40 stormtrooper squad has a close range dps of ~75 while 5 man pios have a dps of 34.19. There is also the fact that stormtroopers are more likely to be undetected(cammo) while performing said flank increasing the chance they can actually do damage once they arrive, and there's the fact they have tactical advance which absolutely melts retreating models. It's like Thompson paras except with cloaking.
If it is true that a unit must have a unique weapon to be valuable, and you believe that the stormtrooper mp40s have overlap with pioneers, then I'm guessing you find assault grenadiers and ostruppen to be useless.
Except they aren't. They offer combat utility that is more then just the name of their weapons, but even so I fully disagree their weapons are not "unique". Stormtroopers are equipped with some of the highest DPS weapons on the game. In fact, there is only one infantry small arm that has more close range dps and that's the Ober STGs.
As for being too squishy against explosives, name one 4 man elite infantry unit that is less vulnerable to them. Your argument applies equally to FSJ and obers as well. Nobody is complaining about those units performance.
The SMGs may as well be a "stock loadout" given they are free. The reason they aren't "stock" is so that you can't just poop them out of any building in your enemies retreat path and expect ez wipes, but make no mistake- they are designed with the mp40s in mind, not the K98s.
I have issues with both Assault Grens and Osttruppen. Assault Grens only are reasonable because pioneers and unnecessarily weak while Osteer still do not have t0 grens. Osttruppen have a horribly designed accuracy buff and debuff when they should and only a defensive buff while in cover. Then lets look at OKW, Volks, panzerfusilers, and Obers. Lets have two T0 0CP squads with 5 man bolt action rifles, with grenades, snares, and anti infantry upgrade. An easy answer is to change panzerfuisllers into an 4 man squad with two panzershrecks and able to lay tellers. A decated AT squad. Obers have good rifles and should be equipped with G43s while retaining their same DPS.
These are design issues, not balance issues. By your logic why not make all bolt action rifles sound the same since it does not matter?
FSJ and Obers have long range dps while stormtroopers have to enter grenade range with their smg upgrade. Hence why the G43 upgrade for Elite Troops perform with great effect and less likely to get wiped. The longer range allows more reaction time when you hear rocket arty as well to avoid them.
If they are design around the SMG upgrade then that is bad. There is overlap with panzergrens and panzergrens are much more useful. There are two roles they can fit in better. General Elite or Demolition Experts. |
I agree and had pointed out during the preview.
Although I one could also redesign them as a cheaper reckon unit closer to Pathfinders.
Personally I would change all one man, one shot snipers to function like light infantry. |
I disagree on several levels.
First, I disagree that losing the bundle nade all of a sudden made stormtroopers not worth getting. Their wipe potential always came primarily from tactical advance meaning the bundles grenade was mainly for forcing the enemy to abandon cover, which the current incendiary grenade does arguably better.
Second, I disagree that the 5 man pios with flamethrower "work much better" than stormtroopers in "most situations". Sure, for clearing garrisons 5man pios with flamer is going to be more cost efficient in the long run, netting you less mp bleed and no recurring munitions cost. But that's not what you use stormtroopers for. Stormtroopers are primarily ambushers and flankers, that can also engage in frontline CQC in a pinch. In these roles they are far superior to pios, 5 man or not.
It certainly doesn't hurt that stormtroopers have infiltrate and smoke nades- smoke being somewhat uncommon in the ostheer lineup, only available on one stock unit(mortar).
If stormtroopers arent worth a slot, then neither are shocks.
Personally, I am not a fan of grenades in general due to latency issues. That was argument over a miscommunication.
Any unit can flank, might as well as use the much more available pioneer squad. The 5 man squad upgrade allows them to do actual damage. Camouflage is only allows for ambushing with out the usage of line of sight blockers. Shocks can engage in frontal combat, Stormtroopers can not.
My biggest grip with them is their still having an identity crisis. Before hand with grens and panzergrens and now with grens and pios. They offer no unique weapon to make them stand out. A simple change is to thier panzersheck upgrade to the unused PzB AT rifle and the MP40 to the MP41(r) aka PPSH in parabellem. Additionally, for an elite unit they die extremely easy to explosive true damage. Additionally they should be good at stock and the SMG upgrade should be a side grade. Easiest way to fix this is to make them a 5 man squad and then adjust the SMGs. |
I'm referring to tactical advance or whatever their skill is called.
Sure the ability is nice but not worth an entire doctrinal slot. Additionally, 5 man pioneers plus flamer work much better in most situations then the stormtrooper smg upgrade while being much more convenient. |
Also, stormtroopers not useful? Wat?
They might not be commandos, but they certainly do their job well and can nuke sneaked up weapon team or unsuspecting squad very quick.
They do not have bundle grenades anymore. Sure they can flank support weapons but panzergrens and regular grens can do the same thing. |
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I did some testing. 5 man grens are weaker than 7 man conscripts and double bar riflemen when each are at vet 3. The 5 man upgrade also adds 10% RA bonus as well as free medkits. The free medkits are important because it gives longevity. If there were any nerfs the Medkits could go first and well as adjust the RA bonus to 7-5%. The doctrine itself is not super strong and most abilities are situational. Stormtroopers are still not useful and the 250 is nice for pioneers but that is about it. Assault and hold can be nice but I do not see it often enough and the fragmentation bombs are good but expensive. |
Would a receive damage modifier with multiplication of 0 work?
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You can put the interval_action in the army tab under start_action. Then perhaps do a filter action for a target (like the HQ)
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"A flamenwerfer is a good weapon, but I still prefer a rifle or a KNIIIIVE!" -Stormtrooper?
"Then want us to attack a Sturmpanzer. That's right, a Sturmpanzer."
"You want us to attack an elephant? Yal vol."
-Osttruppen |
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