Profile of Angrade (Ægion)

Sure, and panzergrenadiers can lose to conscripts at mid range. It happens. Now repeat that test with a more accurate representation of stormtrooper use.
Have a squad of rifles advancing on cloaked stormtroopers in cover, have the stormtroopers pop tactical advance once the rifles are at 10 meters, and give the rifles a second or two reaction delay to simulate the surprise factor.


And Pioneer smgs do less than half the damage of stormtrooper smgs, what's your point?


A grenade can be dodged, a grenade is less reliable at securing wipes on retreating troop, grenade requires the unit to be stationary for the throw animation. Powerful is not just how much upfront damage can be done. If that were the case, then the railway artillery would be one of the strongest off maps in the game, and propaganda artillery one of the weakest.

A hypothetical scenario that may only happen once a match that involves an opponent that does nothing that would require a heavy amount of map influence to actually hope that this scenario would occur.

As mentioned before with issues with pioneers and look we went full circle were the Stormtroopers lack identity.

A grenade dodge reduced damage output especially if they are carrying non firing lmgs. Even a miss grenade does a lot of damage thanks to free damage the squad can inflict. Propaganda is one of the strongest, and it deals no damage.

Question, how bad was your latency. I tried testing my theory but was unsuccessful. Could a high ping cause my theory, aka larger window?

I pressed X to cancel the mine indeed, did that really cause this!?

Maybe? Frame Perfect bad luck?

And I'm saying your argument that "5man pios" are decent damage dealers, while unupgraded pios aren't doesn't add up. If the damage is so pitiful, a 25% increase in pitiful damage is not worth noting. And this is also ignoring the fact that you typically run sweepers on your pios in the mid late game. So a 5 man pio is only going to have 4 guns anyway. Early game you dont need sweepers so you also have 4 guns on your unupgraded pios.

I understand your rocket point. That because a close range troop must theoretically approach the enemy in order to reach their optimum range, they are therefore putting themselves closer which against SOME rocket artillery means shorter projectile travel time.
First, the two german rocket artillery take the same amount of time to land regardless of distance. However since we are talking about german infantry I'll ignore those for now.

Lets take a hypothetical scenario where I want to close range nuke an enemy infantry squad. I have decided that 40 meters is a good range to barrage the enemy squad. If the enemy infantry is static, I start firing at 40 meters and target slightly behind them, and the projectile travel time is -just for argument sake- 1 second.
If the enemy infantry is moving towards me, I ALSO fire at 40 meters, but I fire slightly ahead of them, and the time to impact is the same 1 second. Either way time to impact is the same since I targeted 40 meters out from my rocket arty.
I assume your point about rockets is from close range, because if the rockets are firing from max range then 10-15 meters closer isn't going to matter and the scatter is going to be wonky enough that both squads have a similar chance of getting wiped.

Regarding moving back to the same spot, you said "Longer range units can easily force a rocket unit to move inorder to fire, delaying it." I assume we are talking about long range infantry and not long range vehicles. Why are you letting long range infantry get close enough to "force your rocket unit to move"? Are you letting them sit there 30 meters from the frontline?
Either way, unless your opponent is a complete fool, this is not a real advantage for long range infantry.

Saying tactical advance is a "CRUTCH" implies to me that you think it is there to make up for their lack of damage. It is not. It is a tool that lets them punch well above their weight against squads who are distracted, or become wiping machines against troops that are retreating. You don't use tactical advance on squads who are ready to fire on you. You use them on troops who are already engaged or are caught out of position. It requires more thought then "Oh instant damage boost! Yes plz!"
If you are sending your stormtroopers on a flanking run without using their "advanced" camo, then you are playing wrong.

Mid range dps is useful, but you don't need a unit to have excellent mid range dps in order to be useful. Nobody complains about commandos. At the moment they are underutilized because sections are so good and are in relatively off meta commanders, but nobody is calling for buffs on commandos. And commandos have a very similar role to stormtroopers.


The first strike bonus is good no doubt, but has nowhere near the utility of the tactical advance, being able to activate it whenever you want makes it far more versatile then an ability that activates once if the unit attacks out of camo, and cant reset unless it exits combat and goes back into camo.



Ostheer operates strongest in combined arms. Stormtroopers are excellent for this, you take a bad long range engagement- say grens in heavy cover against a conscript and a guard, then sneak your stormtroopers into close range. Getting into their stronger range is something that Panzer grenadiers actually struggle with.

Five man pios with flamer, short hand.

For Rocket Arty, 20 range does matter for scatter, plus travel time. Most people fire max range barrages. This is my observation. If a the rocket arty have to reposition, they generally miss. Also the Pwerfer it clearly effected by travel time.

By the time get into combat they are usually dead. They do lack mid range damage, thus they do get outclassed by pgrens. Commandos have 5 men. They can take a model drop. They can be upgraded with brens and often are for more mid range damage rather than close range. Additionally, UKF has no counter part to commandos. Royal engineers do not have a similar DPS curve. Osteer does have a counterpart to stormtroopers. Any unit can be used for flanking, though only weapon teams for pioneers. Panzergrens does it better than stormtroopers because they can do it at more of a distance. The bundle grenade, only sightly more expensive offers even high damage than tactical advance and quicker as well. Stormtroopers are outclassed and out shined by panzergrens. The bundle grenade is much better, more purposeful and reasonable than Tactical Advance. Tactical Advance offers very little in capability.

Pioneers are capable of doing damage, and you practically contradict yourself here. Earlier you stated that "The 5 man squad upgrade allows them to do actual damage". You'll have sweepers on those in the mid to late game so we are looking at the firepower of a 4 man squad but the durability of 5. Early game, pios still have that firepower since they lack sweepers, they just don't have that durability.
The other possibility is that you meant non sweeper 5 man pios, but that's just silly. No sweepers on your pios is a rookie mistake, you surely don't mean this do you?


I never mentioned sound. And I am not sure how sound increases a unit's utility.


Saying people generally keep their rocket artillery in one location... At what rank? I'm guessing we are talking in the 1000s? And seriously, nobody is concerned about long range infantry threatening their rocket arty with exception of the land mattress. All you need to do is give a shift reverse command to order it back to base after firing. And it is true that for SOME rocket arty, travel time does vary based on distance, but I don't think that 10-15 extra range is a huge deal unless we are talking a point blank rocket barrage in which case the person controlling the rockets would drive up to the long range infantry as well.


Panzergrenadiers are not necessarily better at flanking, because they cannot as easily approach without being spotted due to lack of commando cammo. In addition, the midrange dps of the Stormtrooper Mp40s is still rather good for an smg with 7.14 at 15 range compared to shocks with 4.78 at the same range and commandoes at 5.68. Finally, if you approach from the correct direction, tactical advance will let you shred the squad even as it tries to retreat. With tactical advance, the stormtrooper mp40s will outdamage the panzergrenadiers at mid range.


Stormtroopers are not just good for the damage that they do but the utilities they provide. They are what PPSH partisans wish they could be. There is also a difference between the ambush camouflage upgrade, and stormtrooper camo. The ambush camo only works if the upgraded unit STAYS in cover. The stormtrooper camo persists for a bit even after leaving cover, and that leway makes ALL the difference.

I already listed the strengths one of which was high damage but i guess you didn't read it so i'll list them again:

The unique attributes stormtroopers bring to the table-exceptional CQC dps, passive self healing, faster decapture rate then normal troops, commando type stealth, extreme wipe potential with tactical advance, the ability to lay booby traps, the ability to basically twoshot caches, and one of only two stock ostheer units to have smoke.

It's not just the damage output, its also the other attributes that make them useful.

I was refering to un-upgraded pioneer squads are weak. Like I said before, deal no damage and in perfect engagements for them, they still lose. A squad like that should win vs units like conscripts if they get a perfect engagement but they do not.

And once again you are not understanding the rocket arty point. The position of the infantry squad in relation to the rocket arty determines reaction. Things go up things come down. Longer they go up the longer they come down. CQB units are naturally closer to the rocket arty units. I am not saying they are in combat with the rocket arty, I am saying their role makes them closer thus high lethality, from reduce scatter and reduce reaction time. This is 101 stuff. People generally fire from the same spot whether they reposition or not. Max range barrages are usually fired at the same target or at enemies at the same range. People who reposition them back usually put them near the same spot because they know they are in range or are protected. This is from observation of rank 10-100 for 3v3s.

Tactical advance is a double edge sword. If you were to use it on panzergrens at mid range the panzergrens would win because the stormtroopers would evaporate. It is only good against retreating units or undefended units. It is a crutch that is it and still panzergrens out preform them.

They only offer a smoke grenade for utility. Booby Trap is expensive especially for Osteer and only the Elite Troop's Stormtroopers have the lack of munitions sink for this ability. They would be better off with shu mines for they are cheaper and not tied to a point.

Partisans in general need a rework.

Panzergrens mid range damage will play more of a role then you would think. Take a look at range 20 pgrens have about 6.99 while stormtroopers have 1.78 Most engages are farther than this point. The damage done before they get at 10 range is extremely important. A 340 manpower unit who sole purpose to only win a few engagements is a waste of a unit and doctrinal slot. This unit needs reworked.

What I am saying the CQB DPS is worthless seeing they die way to quickly and are out classed. They drop models so their passive healing does not really matter. They rare able to use it anyways. The faster de-capture rarely makes an impact. That is about 1.5-3 seconds depending on the point, this is nothing. While the stealth is lenient but the first strike bonus is almost as powerful and not a double edge sword.