Profile of FaustCostBulletin

Now whos putting things on a pedestal.

Hull down for a pIV? That is a quick way to lose a pIV to just about anything.

Spotting scope is almost of no use for a PIV as it doesn't have range to out-shoot anything.

The at stun shot? Does that even work now?


Mg upgrade is superior? I think not

Reigel mines lol? Who even builds half tracks to lay mines ever?

Ambush camo lol.. cmon really man you are just reaching for straws now. None of these things are as godly as you seem them to be

Your rationale is the axis have stuff. Guess what? the Soviets also have stuff. I can just randomly name things sovs have and use your same argument.

You can leave Hull Down instantaneously and the buffs are divine. Great sight and self spotting for 30 munitions is one of the best upgrades in the game. Stun shot works, it just needs to penetrate which isn't a problem for Pak40 most of the time. An MG upgrade doesn't exist for T-34 and the Panzer 4 MG is decent against infantry and aircraft. I use Riegel and Halftrack often, you don't see the value in field resuuply and vehicle immobilization? Ambush Camo is also great. Broaden your horizons.

My rationale is that Ostheer has a lot of stuff that Soviets have no analogue for and considering some innate advantages of Panzer 4 it makes sense to give the slightly better raw stats to the Soviet tank and not the Ostheer one. Right now Ost has both the better tank and better support for it while Soviets are told to use an 85 doctrine. Doesn't make sense.

Feel free to list what unique and effective support Soviets have in such a manner. Overpriced and easily circumvented button and the occasional Vet 1 B4 are all I can think of. That and Mark Target.

PIV:

Hitpoints:
640.0
Armor:
180.0
Rear armor:
90.0
Max speed:
6.3
Cost: 125 fuel

Pen: 120.0/110.0/100.0

t34/85:

Hitpoints:
800.0
Armor:
160.0
Rear armor:
80.0
Max speed:
6.3
Cost: 140 fuel


I wouldn't call that big on an increase in pen and health to be "just a little bit". And again, at T3 you would be getting those 85's out around the time Ostheer is just getting t3 done, never mind t4.

It is just a bit when you consider that Panzer IV has:

- Better armor (before you call the difference irrelevant, then so could the pen difference be called irrelevant, considering Allied tanks usually have weaker armor so lower pen values fare better)
- Cheaper cost
- Far Better Vet
- Cheaper teching costs
- Doctrinal Panzer Tactician Support
- MG Upgrade Option
- Superior Axis AT support (AT gun stun shot, Riegel Mines, Teller Mines, Panzerschrecks (!!!)
- Doctrinal Spotting Scope
- Doctrinal Hull-Down that makes it superior to the T-34
- Doctrinal Command Tank support

All of those except the superior AT support bit directly affect the Panzer IV, without mentioning things like ambush-camo boosted Panzerschrecks and Pak43. What can you point out for T-34/85 that directly help it that Ostheer doesn't have? All I can think of is the replacement Command 76 I suggested, on top of Button if you have it, which is a pretty useless easily circumvented ability right now. And the only one in the list above that has an analogue is the Teller Mine, with the inferior (against tanks) TM-35 mine.

Axis already has far superior support and far superior veterancy options for the Panzer IV, that any slight advantage T-34/85 has is compensated for. And before you say it, saying T-34/85 is still there until end-game when Panzer IV is replaced by Panther/Tiger is a fallacy; as T-34/85 is the heaviest thing in doctrines that have it. If for some reason someone armored assault, you'll find the T-34/85 will often be phased out in favor of the IS-2.

Uh, the entire point of the T34/85 in it's stat distribution and were it's placed on the call in/time system is that it's supposed to be the Soviet version but tweaked a little. It does well versus tanks, and well against infantry, that means it's kinda superior to the Panther in AI but less so in pure AT power.

The PIV in a world with out the Jackson is just like the T34, a medium tank that kind falls off late game when the heavies come out, but since the Jackson is a thing that exists the PIV and by combination t3 just doesn't fly.

Putting it in t3 would just make the little medium armor Axis does have even more irrelevant, unless you changed the tier system and unit lists for every faction.

First off, let me quote my first response to you which got drowned off.

I also don't understand the people who say that a doctrinal T-34/85 should be better. No it should not be. Doctrinal units are there to provide additional options. 85 pigeon holes players into picking it by being a straight upgrade to a stock unit that is worthless. There's no excuse for that when it would still be balanced as a stock unit. Even more so since you would have to pay for your teching.

You guys can't complain about a call-in meta and then insist that doctrinal units should be stronger hands down. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you solve a lot of problems by making 85 a stock unit when there is no reason it shouldn't be, or you can continue whining both about the call in meta and a hypothetical 85 that will somehow suddenly be imbalanced because its unlock parameter changed from pick one of the few viable doctrines and wait until 10 CP to pay 120 fuel to unlock it and use it with any other doctrine the faction has access to.

With that out of the way, no, the tank that you're putting on a pedestal is not that much better than a Panzer IV which still has many advantages with far better veterancy and Panzer Tactician access, and MG, and Axis has heavier tanks than IS-2 in the form of King Tiger and Jagdtiger. Panther is also a very effective non-doctrinal AT.

Panzer IV never ceases to be useful; it can hold its own well against IS-2. Just not alone and not very cost effectively, but it's by far not to be considered useless. It's not less useful than T-34/85 either, which it itself is not bad.

And edit to respond to your edit: T-34/85 would be perfectly balanced at T3 and would not need to be nerfed. At all. It's a slightly better Panzer IV that's still worse in many ways.

Uh, it's a post about the T34/85. I don't see how discussing it and it's impact in moving it to t3 for Soviets is very off topic.

All you did was to put T-34/85 on a pedestal, fool yourself into thinking 85 is somehow a Panther with anti-infantry capabilities, and then run the very good Panzer IV into the ground and start whining about how bad Ostheer T3 is and how Ostheer somehow depends on Tigers when even their worst doctrines are very viable, and I know this because I play Ostheer more than any faction and I've played with every doctrine many times.

So yes, your post is only tangential and you're just setting yet another thread about for more pro-Ostheer whining.

is this map competitive?

To be frank, I am not sure. It has a large city section that's not in the middle, with a larger part of it being wide open ground swampland and a secondary smaller town. Pretty big with plenty of room to maneuver, but also soft chokepoints in the sense that they can be circumvented but not very easily.