The Jadgpanther would need to be a commander unit for sure, but it wouldn't honestly be that out of place in T4. However the problem with the StuG is that it's just out shined by the PIV because they are both generalist, but the StuG has no turret. If Soviets get better non-tier units Ostheer would need to as well in order to not fuck with the balance even more.
The PIV having an armor upgrade (for fuel or MP instead of muni) would make it more viable when it comes out in the current Jackson heavy meta, the StuG having a defined role as an Anti Tank platform, and the Ostwind doing suppression like the other Flak vehicles would go a long way towards making T3 not a rare as it is now.
StuG is cheap. The cost difference is big enough to make it spammable more than Panzer IV. Give it a whirl, nothing but Soviet endgame vehicles can really deal with StuG spam, but nobody here would argue that the heavy tanks aren't overly centralizing themselves in the metagame. At T4 it clashes with the Panther. I would love to see it as a munitions-upgrade to the current Panther, unlocked via a commander.
I am all for buffing Ostwind and that's it. T-34/85 being stock doesn't make Panzer IV useless at all. It's not a nerf to it.
As for the Jackson-heavy meta, I think the problem with Jackson is that it has too much damage and too little penetration, both at Vet 0. This makes it outright bad against the Axis heaviyweights while making it too good against T3. If it were up to me I would give it its veteran penetration and give it 160 damage and then it would get 240 damage via vet. |
I'm fine with the t34/85 going into t3 as long as Ostheer gets the Jadgpanther. Also the StuG get's a massive buff to anti tank abilities, the additional armor on the PIV becoming an upgrade you can buy at any time like the Ausf J OKW has, and the Ostwind gets suppression.
That way both vanilla factions can get more effective units at T3!
I think the vet 2 upgrade for Panzer IV is just fine, to be honest. It's not very hard to get it there and it picks up Blitz on the way. Moreover, do you really want more munitions sinks for Ostheer? I would rather not, as I find myself tight on munitions more than ever when playing Ostheer.
I disagree that StuG needs a massive buff, I feel it does just fine for its price. Remember, its price is comparable to M10, SU-76 and Puma. It's not worse than Puma and it's definetely far better than M10 or SU-76. You just need it in numbers; I've seen friends use them to great effect. The stun shot is a beast too!
SU-76 and M10 deserve attention first, and StuG is okay in my opinion, if not a staple unit. It's a cheap unit that can tackle armor in numbers, what's not to like? It's a T-34/76 tooled and priced for the job, combined with an ability that can actually help it tackle larger vehicles in numbers. Plus, the T-34/85 shift to T3 indirectly buffs it by giving it more medium armored things to shoot at, as you can bet IS-2 will be less common with a more accessible T-34/85 around.
However, I'm all for a buff to Ostwind. It's the red headed stepchild of Ostheer T3 and the only thing there that is truly underperforming. Against aircraft, it is great, but against infantry, it's not as cost effective as the OKW Flak Truck at all. I would not object to a suppression buff.
And Jagdpanther is easily one of the coolest tanks if not the coolest tank of WWII, so from a purely fanboy perspective I would like to see it in, but just how is probably topic for another thread. It doesn't have a place as a stock unit though, that's for sure. (Please don't discuss that here)
Overall I am surprised by how I just agreed with you on some points. You do bring up a few good points every now and then it seems. Unless you're just trolling the thread like the user "some one" did saying that Elefant should be cheaper and a stock unit to compensate for this change. Just being cautiously optimistic here. But if you aren't trolling, then I am glad to have convinced at least one person that T-34/85 being widely available is not only good for Soviets, but good for the game in general. |
Let me flip the script on you.
Panther in t3. What does that do to the 34/76? You could use zis and to a lesser degree guards, but it makes building a t34 a waste of resources. Nothing wrong with the 85. It's just the timing thing. Buff the 76. I care not. But putting an 85 in t3 will lead to every ostheer player skipping t3. Put it in t4. That's fine... sort of. The regular mediums need a minute before the big mediums come out.
I think it's faction design. A few good units vs a mass of not quite so good units.
Are people really saying the t34/85 is similar to a panther and defending the existence of the t34? Which even more useless than a p4? Was there a patch i didn't hear about?
Refer to this quote, Glendizzle.
I wrote paragraphs upon paragraphs explaining why the T-34/85 is not a "big medium". It's not Panther tier. Panther is the only tank that is Panther tier. Being slightly better than Panzer IV while being worse in many ways doesn't make a tank "big medium". Panther in Ost T3 is pants on head insane and if you think the two are any bit comparable, you need a reality check.
T-34/85 won't make Panzer IV useless. If it would make it useless, it would already be doing it, more easily, being a CP10 unit instead of a T3 unit, an upgrade which costs resources. Hitting T3 doesn't magically give you the resources to build your tank, saving until CP10 does.
And it's horrible faction design. Soviets can't afford more tanks than Germans do. Speaking by cost, a matchup would be 5 T-34/76 vs 4 Panzer IV for the same price, except the T-34's cost more in MP combined and will get absolutely get creamed because they are so pathetic. Such a matchup never happens and German tanks are never outnumbered when you build units at a similar price range.
Buffing the 76 is replacing it with 85 as it is wrong that 85 is doctrinal in the first place. 85 is balanced against Panzer IV and in general. Also, saying that it would be okay at T4 really shows your experience with Soviets. I wanted to avoid personally attacking you, but you should know that Soviet T4 is not more expensive or available later than T3 and is already far, far superior. The difference is insane. Just like the difference between 85 and Panther is.
For the billionth time: T-34/85 should get its slightly better raw stats at a slightly higher cost compared to Panzer IV while Panzer IV gets far superior veterancy, an MG upgrade, and many other support including Panzer Tactician completely unavailable to Soviets with no analogue. Axis already has it better, and you want the status quo to remain as it is, which is to give Soviets an even worse main battle tank with zero gimmicks unless players pick a certain doctrine and avoid T3. Guess what happens? People play Guards Motor and skip T3, or go for IS-2 and skip mediums alltogether. Nobody bothers with 76 because its both weaker and with absolutely no proper support or gimmicks besides a gimped ram and horrible veterancy, and you have the nerve to say that's balanced while acting offended at the notion of being called an Axis warrior.
If you are okay with Soviets having both the worse stock medium multipurpose tank and the worse supporting abilities, Axis warrior is what you are. Now, until you read the earlier posts where I explained in detail to multiple people over multiple posts that "85 invalidates T3" is utter nonsense, I will not respond to you again. At this rate you're only repeating yourself and being an annoyance. If your Panzer IVs are made utterly useless by enemy 85's, the problem is between the screen and the chair. They have more than enough to go by with, unlike poor 76. I know this because I switched to Ostheer. Discussing with people who can't stand the thought of an Allied unit better than the Axis counterpart without requiring something like being confined to a few doctrines is tiring, and even people like you, who stress that they aren't Axis warriors, defend BS design so vehemently it is killing any mood I have to actually discuss. And then I get accused of flipping on anyone who disagrees with me, yet nobody wants to understand that it is NOT okay, for the billionth and tenth time, to give both the better tank related gimmicks and the raw stats to one side and give the other horrible units with negligible cost advantage. T-34/76 never outnumbers Panzer IV, and Panther is more than cost effective against it. |
Lol. I'm no axis warrior, believe you me. My favorite is USF by a mile, but I get bored of being pigeonholed into 2-3 strats if I want to win.
That is precisely why I switched to Ostheer from Soviets
I could give a fuck about my stats. there is no money involved, but that said I guarantee I'm a better player than you'd think by looking at my stats playing with randoms. I play 95% of my games with friends and try really crazy stuff with randoms. Ever try spamming stugs into lefh? I actually prefer 2v2 myself, just not with a random mate. I rarely get to play the 2v2s because there are always more guys around. To me the game is about having fun and socializing with Internet strangers. Definitely not about measuring dicks.
I often have games where the heaviest thing I built was an halftrack. I use and love almost every Ostheer doctrine in the game. Lately I've been using Mobile Defense and Festung Support to good effect. I'm not too fond of the StuG simply because I don't like big fat vehicles, but I know where you're coming from. I try something different every game and Ostheer is the only faction that doesn't punish you for it. And nobody here is comparing stats then, it's just that you were the one to instigate that exchange. I didn't even check my stats once until you said that I should at least have the balls to display my stats. So if you don't care about stats, your earlier request and the manner in which you put it forward was completely atypical of you.
Imagine having to fight two 85s with a p4 and a stug. Even two stugs and p4 are in a world of trouble. Tell me that doesn't make you cringe. T3 doesn't pen well at all. The p4 is damn good imo for what it is. With vet 2 it's even solid in late game. That said, it's simply outclassed by the 85. That in and of itself isn't the issue. The timing is. Having 85s hit the field at the same time p4s are will not be good. There is a reason the bad ass mediums like the e8, 85, and panther come out a good five minutes after the stock mediums. It's because they pwn stock mediums. I agree with the notion that it's silly to have stock units just upgraded by doctrinal ones. There should be different roles, even if only slightly. M4a3 and the m4a3e8 are a good example of this. Or the p2 and doctrinal ostwind for okw, better yet command panther and normal panther. But making the best mediums arrive when the other guy is just getting his stock one out is clearly disadvantageous to the latter. Soviets vs Wehrmacht isn't badly balanced, why screw it up?
Some answers are in bold. For the last paragraph:
A far cheaper P4 and StuG combo should be creamed by 2 T-34/85s in direct confrontation and it's not balanced if this isn't the case. Ostheer can support Panzer IVs well enough to mitigate any difference between the two medium tanks. T-34/85 at T3 only makes it more widely available. It doesn't buff the unit. You keep going on and on about how it would be far better than Panzer IV, when I repeated myself so many times to you and others who then kept ignoring every argument and continued on with the "but, but think of the poor, poor T3!" that I don't think saying the same things over and over again is getting me anywhere despite being repeatedly bombarded with the same "counterargument". It's a crime that an obsolete tank such as the 76 is the Soviet MBT, and it should have been replaced by 85 at the game's premise.
Soviets vs Wehrmacht IS imbalanced, some sense of balance is kicked into it by doctrinal, powerful Soviet call-ins that make a joke of the teching system. The end result is people whining about both call-in meta and stale, repetitive doctrines, who simultenously refuse any attempt to fix that situation by making a doctrinal unit that would be perfectly balanced when non doctrinal into a non doctrinal unit. It doesn't add up and it is counterintuitive. Panzer IV has the gimmicks in and around itself, and T-34/85 has the raw stats while costing more. THAT is asymmetrical balance. You want everything piled on Ostheer.
And I counter 85's often in the games I mentioned before where the heaviest thing I built was a halftrack. AT guns, mines and Panzerschrecks exist. Many other Ostheer-exclusive doctrinal AT options also. It makes perfect sense to give the slightly better stats to the Soviet tank. If you say otherwise, the bias becomes apparent. If you aren't an Axis warrior, at least make an attempt to explain why this setup would be imbalanced besides saying "T-34/85 beats Panzer IV in 1v1". Well duh, what do you think Panzer IV does to the 76 which comes with zero gimmicks and even worse support to justify its existence? |
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My friend I mentioned earlier who uses Assault Grenadiers often said that they beat PPSh conscripts. Is that true? I wasn't paying attention during the game. |
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I support this. Maybe more players will start appreciating beautiful doctrines like Festung Support and Festung Armor, while building the doctrine of their dreams. It also means Relic would have a horse in the race and an actual reason to keep the game going. |
How about putting the T-34-85 into T3. Make the T-34/76 m43 as a call-in at 4-5 CP?
The pacing of the T-34-85 should be no problem with adjusting price for the tier and the cost of the tank.
Either get a quick 76 or try to hold for later and get 85s? Sure some global unlock maybe needed aswell.
The first half is the idea. The replacement idea I had, which I also mentioned in OP is actually an offensively oriented T-34/76 command tank. The "earlier cheaper doctrinal nurfed tank" concept doesn't work and it shows on the M10 Tank Destroyer. It works for Wehr Puma because it actually has no stock analogue. So I would rather have it in the form of a command tank. And contrary to popular beliefs, Russians did have radioes.
You want remove most cool factor in game? Late war german monsters fight versus early war soviets tanks. 
Late war german monsters with early war sustainable air support and well trained, almost as numerous infantry versus early war soviet tanks with gimped and barely existent air support... Sounds about right. In fact your post is rather inspiring, I am going to make a similar signature for myself as well.
Not to sound like a prick, but when having balance discussions, experience matters. I have 788 hours in game and i'm still a scrub. Thus I largely stay out of balance discussions. I tend to listen to guys like Cruzz, Luvnest, Sib, etc etc. It's proven they know what they are talking about. For all we know you are a seven year old kid with a good grasp on the English language. At least having the cojones to show your player card lets people know you have some skin in the game.
on topic.
85 in t3 wouldnt be as great as you think. Facing 85s with ostheer t3 would be a nightmare. They are better than p4s. period. that 160 extra hp is a huge deal. it makes perfect sense playing okw, but it would further erode ostheer's usefulness, which has been declining for some time now.
In response to the bolded part, I can't say you're acing it.
Not to sound like a prick, but I was completely unimpressed by your stats. I am saying that only because you started it, as you seem to be a 4v4 oriented Axis player to whom 2v2 has been rather cruel.
I don't feel like a scrub, sorry to not have joined your boat. I feel I invested a substantial amount of time in this game to at least get the right to instigate a discussion. I am not building patches on my own; just starting a discussion, so people can tell me what they think of the solutions I propose. If experienced players come and join the discussion, and take the time to present their arguments, that's even better. I am ready to debate. No matter the fluctuating quality of counterarguments against my ideas that were presented here, nobody was left without a thorough response. I'm here, I am ready to debate, and I would love nothing more than to convince you, or get converted by a more sensible argument trying. And thanks for your compliment on my grasp of English, I'm not a native speaker so it's nice of you to say that.
I've been playing Ostheer a lot. You clearly aren't a 1v1 player where neither of us can claim expertise, and 2v2 and above, Ostheer has absolutely no problems besides a few underwhelming units (Flamer Halftrack, Panzergrenadiers, Scout Car) so either you've been on an unlucky streak or you're jumping on the bandwagon. It's an excellent support faction and the primary reason OKW is overpowered in team games. I get a smile on my face whenever I see a double OKW in 2v2, because I know they can't completely let loose without the touch of Ostheer.
I talked a lot about why T-34/85 is balanced with Ostheer T3 (which I disagree is underpowered) and why it's a far smaller offense that T-34/85 should be slightly better while keeping Panzer IV great in many ways as opposed to the current matchup we have where T-34/76 is a pathetic whipping boy and an overpriced mobile landmine both with worse hard stats and far worse support options.
Moreover, if T-34/85 was overpowered against Panzer IV, such a balance issue would not have been fixed by making it doctrinal. There's no reason to be too afraid of changing status quo when moving it to T3 is hardly a buff to the unit itself. It's a buff to the faction who has to make do with both the worse tank and worse gimmicks. CP10 is free as opposed to Soviet T3, and in some fast games it even comes earlier. Panzer IV vs T-34/85 doesn't have to be a straight 1v1 in a vacuum either. Panzer IV has enough advantages. T-34/76 doesn't and never did. That's the problem and that's why its whole existence is pathetic.
If you want to read more about why this matchup would be fair, read the rest of the thread as well.
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it will create other balance issues. t34/85 shutting down all ostheer T3 units and it will bring back the days of SU85 meta with extra AI firepower and ostheer will have to rely on shreck pgrens blobs.
T34/85 is currently the 2nd best "medium" tank in the game. So its best not to touch Soviets callin right now, as they scaled well with ostheer callins.
This is purely reactionary conjecture, a product of the perfectly understandable worst case scenario thinking bias. If you read the last few pages you'll find a lot of arguments in detail about why this would not be a balance issue but a step forward in balance mainly because Panzer Iv maintains distinct advantages. Furthermore, being a doctrinal unit doesn't make the unit more balanced. Doctrinal units are not meant to be straight upgrades and being outside the tech aystem is a big enough advantage for them and they don't need to outdo stocks just because they are doctrinal. If anything, tying it to the tech system will make Ostheer T3's life easier as the enemy has to spend resources on teching as well.
And Cruzz, why do you think T3 isn't sufficient gating? It's not that much better than Panzer IV which still has many distinct advantages over 85 unlike 76 which is pathetic in comparison to PzIV. |
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The Halftrack has field reinforce and is great for it. Riegels are better at the same price.
And it's not a bad idea. A bad idea is gimping a stock unit so an actually balanced and useful version can be doctrinal. Would you like it if Panzer IV with the long 75 was doctrinal? 85 isn't Panther tier and 76 isn't even Panzer IV tier, so this is exactly what Soviets face.
And you also glossed over how this fixes the Soviet call-in meta problem without re inventing the wheel. It fixes something you too acknowledge as a problem. Why ridicule it by casually saying "bad, bad idea"? Do you call every idea you don't agree with bad? |
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