Profile of general_gawain

The basic Tiger wasn't.

The Command Tiger is a new unit in the OKW commander, and they tied it to tech because if they didn't they'd end up creating a better version of Special Operations.

Once they'd done that, they figured they might as well do the same thing with the Tiger Ace, which is also a unit in the new commanders.

The problem is: CP gain and unlocking of units and abilities is balanced within the CP structure itself. If you take some units out of the structure but leave the rest where it is, it surely will become unbalanced. How to even think about making heavy tanks tech dependent but leaving AT offmap at 12CP? How to even think about leaving all the other unit call-ins without a change with CP requirement in the CP structure while removing only the heavies? This will open up the box of pandora regarding balance issues. Balance will be far worse than it was as all heavies had a CP requirement.

There is one more thing I want to add to the discussion.

CP structure of units and abilities is one of the few real balanced mechanisms that actually work in CoH2 and reward you for taking action. Let me explain this:


1) CP timing is not influenced by map size / player count /gamemode.
2) CPs reward players to take the fight to their opponents instead of digging in at ressource points because you get them mainly for dealing and receiving damage.
3) All CP dependent units/abilities are directly and transparent assigned to a specific CP value in a complex network of commander abilities and counter-abilities. You can easily balance the CP value around the battlefield impact that a unit/ability has (or which unit/abilty it should counter).
4) Sometimes these units/abilties allow you hang into the game even if you have less map control and less ressources, because they are not dependent on map control. Maybe you can't afford to tech further than T3, but you can get out that CP dependent unit. Some of my greatest turn arounds have to do with that mechanism.


CP gain is an unique counterweight to manpower/fuel/ammunition gain and map control. Next to population its another kind of alternative ressource. Without it you would be crushed even faster if you are behind. Some turnarounds never would have happened without this mechanism... and turning around an already lost battle is the greatest thing you can have in this game.

Just think twice about this before striping units of CP requirements. And if you really want to strip it, then you have to look at the timing of all commander units and abilities not just the heavy tanks. But I'm quite sure it will be never again balanced like it is atm across all gamemodes.

We thought already about it, but this would be the last way to do ( if nothing else works). We would like to have it without CPs.

So right now i think something about 1-2 min build time could already work. And yes with like Tigerace with 9 CP but need t4 on the field can ofc work.

If you look at my little poll I made recently tech+CP requirement seems to be what nearly 2/3 of the people that voted want. This is a community patch after all

https://www.coh2.org/topic/91865/timing-of-heavy-and-super-heavy-tanks-across-all-game-modes

For me its the only way to have heavy tank timing similar across all game modes if we don't want to touch ressource inflation and fuel transfer in the big teamgames (although this would be even better). It doesn't matter how long the build time becomes heavy tanks without CP requirement will be always way faster available in 3vs3 & 4vs4.

Maybe the most important thing: Before this patch you got the heavy AT counter off-map abilities at the same time as you got the heavy tanks out to have a chance to finish them off in a tank battle. So theoretically this abilities have to be moved to tech requirement too if you stick to tech requirements... this change really affects more than just tank battle timing, it affects the whole construct of CP requirements for units and abilities.

Please don't get me wrong I appreciate your work and the bunch of time you guys are investing although you have RL stuff to do. The patch is a real good one overall.

Touching heavy tanks requirements will break 1v1 balance. Game must be balanced for its competitive design. For team games just multiply fuel costs 2x;3x;4x times. This will definitely change units cost efficiency and that is the starting point for a new team game balance. Otherwise 1v1 will become boring if you force 40+ min game just to tech and inf will become too dominant

1. Heavy tanks were CP dependent up to now and their timing was regulated by the amount of CPs you needed to call them in. This way it was no problem with 3v3 and 4vs4.

2. Because of some rare cases of stalling for a heavy tank without full tech in 1vs1/2vs2 they want to change CP dependence to tech dependence. That wouldn't change much about timing in 1vs1/2vs2 but prevent that rare cases of stalling. On the other side it makes heavies alot earlier available in 3v3/4vs4.

3. If you would give heavies a tech dependence and a CP requirement that is roughly reached at the same time in 1vs1 it changes next to nothing in 1vs1/2vs2 but alot in 3vs3/4vs4, because you couldn't pull out a heavy too early there (especially with that ressource transfer).

So it would be still better in 1vs1/2vs2 that it was in the last years and good in the big game modes at the same time. Isn't it worth to give it a try then?

Edit: Although you are completely right about the maps. Touching the ressources would be alot better, because it would have an effect on all game phases of the big game modes.

Should we really care that much about what happens in 3v3 and 4v4? This is a clusterfuck anyway.
Tankfest or arty pride march - who cares?

I played above tousand games in this two game modes with friends and we had great fun. I would really love to have longer early and mid games phases, but that won't become reality. Keep the heavies/super heavies out of the first 25 minutes at least please.

Come on if you can bind them to tech + CP this isn't a real change for tech bind only in 1vs1/2vs2 but its a huge deal for 3vs3/4vs4. Think alone of fuel transfer between players in that big games, that is still possible and comes on top of ressource inflation just to let you get that heavy even sooner.