I do think that the KV1 is slightly UP, I just don't agree with the statement that the timing of the KV1 is the parameter that makes it UP.
Timing is a big part of a unit beeing up, balanced or op. Imagine the KW-1 would come at T2, it would be op as hell. Just wanted to say it wouldn't be slightly up if it would hit the field earlier, timing is a part of balance. |
So a 30% and 41% chance to bounce dedicated anti tank units. For the sake of comparison, since we have established that the kv is just a more durable t34 (going by the 160 more health AND 0.8 damage modifier) what is the t-34s chance to bounce those dedicated AT units. It sure has to be pretty close to the kv-1 for there not to be any advantages over the 34 right? I'm betting the t34 is going to bounce the pak 20% of the time and Shreks 30% cause if it's anything lower, like say 0% chance to bounce coupled with the significantly less health I think id pick a kv-1 when I can afford one simply die to the undiniably improved durability.
But of course it HAS to be closer than that for you to down play 30 and 40% chance to bounce dedicated counters.
...and you get 1,5x T34 for 1x KW-1- > Nearly same health, earlier timing, less armour much more damage, speed, accleration and utility.
Okay lets turn it around. Would you leave the KW-1 exactly as it is because you say it is balanced (including timing, population, 1/5 doctrinal spot and cost of course)? |
it has the same aoe of a normal p4 with a bit worse scatter If you would have read my posts you would have seen that I never asked for a change of the maingun but for a buff of the MGs to T34 level. T34 and PzIV both have higher MG DPS, thats a big part of their infantry shock value. Combined with speed for kiting infantry or attacking an AT-Gun from outside of its fire arc, they are both better at fighting infantry and AT-Guns while still more flexible when it comes to AT (look at my initial post for further informations).
KV1 has a better chance to bounce Shreks and packs than almost any allied tank in the game...what do you want from it here? Immunity? Reflect damage back at the enemy?
Shrek still has 59% penetration chance at max range, PAK has 70%. Thats not even close to your sarcasm of immunity or reflection. So just leave it aside please. Read my initial post, i proposed just small changes without touching health or armour. After reading that you may answer again please. Defending the KW-1 at its current spot is like denying that Ostwind was a lackluster before the recent patch. Its one of the worst tanks in the game. |
what's ur point ? the kv 1 is better than a ost p4 and okw too it can beta them easly
That a KW-1 will beat an Ost-PZV frontally doesn't mean it is better. Don't put them in a bubble. A different example for you: A T34/76 will beat a Ostwind for sure, that does not mean I would pick the T34 over the Ostwind.
KW-1 will be eaten by PAKs and Shreks because of its low AI damage and low mobility. A PanzerIV or a T34/76 is a better investment because of earlier timing, less cost, way better damage and kiting versus infantry and a lot more flexibility/mobility overall. At its current performance KW-1 doesn't deserve to come so late. Moving it from call-in to tech without changing it was a mistake, because the tech skipping call-in was its big bonus. But I don't want to change its timing at all just give it a little more AI and some special utility as stated in my first post. It is an T4 heavy tank after all (although the cheapest and worst one). |
When they did the new commander patch I cannot for the life of me understand why they gave UKF the M10. Would have been a much better idea to give them an M4A3. The M10 is a T3 budget TD for a faction that is guaranteed an AT gun and has probably the second best (a close second at that) non-doctrinal TD.
Sherman M4A3 would have been better.
Imo the M10 fits UKF much better than USF.
At USF the M10 has to compete with Jackson. Thats hard because the Jackson is so good with a decent ROF.
At UKF you have the Firefly. Its low ROF and its stunning tulips means its much more an supporting TD than the Jackson. Stun enemy tank, deal some damage and let the tanks and AT-Guns with higher DPS finish the enemy tank. It would be an option for example to fire tulip at enemy tank just when you want to swarm it with M10s.
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To your timing point:
Does it really come that much later (please correct me if I'm way off in the fuel costs below)?
OKW:
15 truck, 35 med base, 15 truck, 120 Panzer HQ, 140 P4
=325 fuel (likely +15 fuel for medics)
SOV:
15 T1, 85 T3, 80 T4, 145 KV1
=325 fuel
I think I'm somewhere off in the building costs, but not by far (maybe 10 fuel or so). SOV T2 build will come around 25 fuel later with side tech. OKW T2 build is the same 340 fuel.
Can't say much about OST since I really can't remember the building costs. I just know that BP1 is 40 fuel and BP2 is 90. Buildings were relatively cheap with around 20(?) fuel each, so 60 for the buildings, 130 for BPs, 120 for the tank would be approx. 310 fuel.
The following numbers are assuming you are teching directly for it. In a 1vs1 this won't happen, but you can assume both players will spend around the same number of fuel on side techs (Soviet/OKW), optional T1 and T2 building (Ostheer) or vehicles and light tanks (all). So we can take the numbers as an orientation for timing. In bigger game modes it is a common tactic that one or two players in the team are teching as fast as they can to get a shock unit asap.
Ostheer (BP = Battlephase):
BP1 = 40
BP2 = 90
T3 building = 15
PZIV = 120
Alltogether 265 - Starting fuel of 10 = 255 fuel
(StuG III G comes at 225 fuel)
Soviet
T1 building = 10
T3 building = 85
T4 building = 90
KW-1 = 145
Alltogether 330 - Starting fuel of 20 = 310 fuel
(T34/76 comes at 255 fuel like PZIV)
I didn't compare to OKW in my post, because there it is much harder to compare. Are we playing a 1vs1 where OKW is dependend on salvage only or are we playing a 2vs2 with an Ost mate who builds the caches while OKW still can salvage. This is a huge difference that really makes any comparison very hard if not obsolete. Your numbers are correct with the exception of the medtruck that costs 25 fuel instead of 35 fuel.
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Thanks for the info, I stand corrected.
Then the KV1 seems to be very decent against other mediums, even economically. It's just unreliable due to the high rng on both penetrating and getting penetrated. But it should be better than both P4s.
But it is a Tier4 heavy tank that comes a lot later than a PZIV and especially way later than a StuG III G, which is a way bigger thread for it. Actually KW-1 comes halfway between PZIV and Panther.
It was good as it is as it was a call-In. In that days you skipped T4 and used the call-in to put the tech cost directly into the tank. That way the first KW-1 was pretty cheap. After putting the unit in tech it just got a bad timing space in T4. Ostheer PZIV and T34/76 both come out 55 fuel earlier, both have greater shock value for opponents infantry and are a lot more flexible.
So again. A buff of the MGs to T34/76 level is surely not too much to ask for. Some utility ability like a smoke shell or a infantry suppression ability would help to use it as a breakthrough or defensive tool (choose your liking). |
Still saying the B4 is useless is a big stretch like many claim here!
In a forward build it can be pretty strong but it has it donwsides. Overall the unit needs no change. Only the random behaviour of the 90mun ability is a downer.
On the other side it is far from op as one user around here insist on. |
Ranger have so much outright close combat damage that this makes up for having no smoke. They lost their damage reduction but got some received accuracy bonus and got cheaper, thats fine. In addition they have 3 weapon slots and pick up a super bazooka instead of a bazooka. I do think they are a very strong unit if you combine them with smoke (mortar, offmap, echelons...). No change needed. |
The following changes will result in KV-1’s being 25% faster to repair.
KW-1 desperately needed that just to even its repair speed in comparison to other factions engineers plus doctrinal repair abilities. Churchills as one example in a similar combat role with 1400hp(!) can be send back to battle pretty fast with anvil engineers and doctrinal self repair. Two KW-1 doctrines only have the lousy soviet engineers, the third has the conscript repair in addition which is pretty lousy too. It still takes forever to repair high health soviet tanks if you don't pick a doctrine with self repair or the repair station. |