on a side note, sappers have snare, and can equip 2x piats, cheap unit that can snare and kill tanks
Ok so do Riflemen and Penals. Whats your point?
The Firefly is a really valuable unit that does its job well. I dont see why it needs changes tbh. |
Multiple people have explained that this is not the case. The Katyusha and the Calliope are on par with the Panzerwerfer in terms of wiping potential. The Land Mattress and Stuka have their own functionality and the Stuka is not necessarily better at wiping than anything else. That you apparently choose to ignore this does not mean people did not answer your question.
The Calliope is meant to be used at close to medium range. Not from long range. It is not DoT, it is the ultimate shotgun unit. That is why it has higher durability than other rocket arty. It's the most reliable at wiping when you use it right.
This I can get behind, even if I don't agree. |
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None of the responses have answered or attempted to answer what I asked directly and I explained I know they can be dodged, that one is area denial DoT and one is Burst. I don't understand why people are posting with whatever is in their heads rather than answering the op??
WHY do Axis need such power? It would be more fun if it was still devastating but less prone to wipe squads. Im aware it can be dodged, Im aware of the maps being greatly beneficial to Arty fests, I'm aware that a med can flank and kill them.
I WANT them to bleed as heavily as they do, I do NOT have a problem with them, I'm just asking why they need to be such potent weapons at entirely wiping squads rather than, for EXAMPLE, leaving 1-3 models with literally no health. That would at least let you recover with a timely retreat.
Im not talking about balance, I'm asking WHY is the balance the way it is??
For the record I think Calliopes are devasting just like all rocket arty, but unlike Axis rocket arty it is DoT (in theory, in practice not as much) and does not wipe as reliably unless you factor in retreating units, much like the Stuka. Unlike the Stuka it's burst/alphastrike/whatever you call it here is much more potent. So again, why do Axis specifically need the oneshot-ability and Allies do not. I have a pretty good grasp of the game mechanics and tbh I know almost all of what has been said.
Why does Axis rocket arty need to be able to wipe better?
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Teamgames.
Why do Axis Rocket Arty have to 'oneshot' allied infantry? What part of the Axis vs. Allies game balance makes this a necessary feature and with such reliability? Yes, I am aware Allies can do it with Katyushas and Self-Propelled Guns, but the chance to one shot a squad is much lower as the shells land much slower than the rockets, which commonly wipe entire blobs. Allied Arty is over time, a comparative 'DoT' to the rocket artys 'Burst' type barrages.
I propose adjusting the damage to be lethal enough to wipe to continue to do massive damage to a squad on its own, but not be so prone and easy to wipe the squad instantly, without any retreat (Or during... Walking Stuka says hi.
This is more from a 3v3/4v4 game mode where, due to the maps, the Werfer's and Stuka's can easily do massive damage and economical man power damage in the long run. Is this idea that you're not meant to have a chance vs lategame Axis if/when (with their ease of setting up caches they get there ahead or something? Why?
It's not skillful. It isn't a nice experience, its just genuinely infuriating to lose a squad instantly or without much skill from the opposition in a game where losing a unit is a serious blow or an invitation to attack and lose the game, either that attack or the next.
I feel the game would be more enjoyable for all, 1v1 and teamgames if they were to be toned down.
I see no reason Relic should't also consider teamgames when balancing, plenty of people play them almost exclusively and therefore also bring in revenue. They either enjoy team games for the mass carnage or the competitive teamplay aspect, but I digress. |
Honestly Fireflies are fine, and aren't they getting more 'responsive' in the next patch? Or was that the last  weat cant remember but they are definitely fine in teamgames, they just require a lot. Either muni and/or micro. |
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How is it debateable? In team games it can hit the field too early, some situations you can't dodge it for the HUGE impact it delivers, the maps REALLY play to its strengths and it can be very easily protected (also maps).
Not the stuka but something needs changed. In low level (army ranks 10-12) it offers too much control vs the risks of manoucreing into position to dive it.
Personally I wait from 1 barrage to when I think they will barrage next and if possible try to dive/pressure it then, but this isnt always the case and its not because i can't find the angle, its just not possible when its protected by 2/3/4 players armies and bases. This is the problem to me, not the devastating unit itself. |
That's absolutely not true. An entire array of toolsnot massively used in 1v1, and can be used to balance 4v4. The classic is all indirect fire. Building 2 mortars in 1v1 is death, as is building early arty; exception is vs UKF emplacement spam.
SHTDs are also just not used in 1v1, its a team tool only. 1v1 only sees 1 heavy tank destroyer generally.
Also, and this is gonna really hammer WhiteFlash and the maps guys, a huge amount of 4v4 issues is due to map design. This one is stupid hard to get right. Redball is the most played map and HIGHLY incentizes massive MG play due to the value in forcing super long retreats and the small frontline minimizing required MG count. You can see opposite design attempted with Hill 400, which would be amazing if the fuels weren't problematically far away and relatively easy to lock down. Removing caches and either removing or moving dedicated fuel behind the lines would help mitigate instant 4v4 loses and incentivize pushing as safely holding the fuel is no longer worth more than taking another control point. People seem to enjoy the massive laney arty fests and its stupid time and energy intensive to fix, so probably not worth fixing.
Sanders wrote up the necessary changes (at least for UKF). Its just a LOT of work and massive revamping. We've marched towards this more perfect game patch by patch over the years, you can see the arch of progress.
I Agree with all that except the 'perfect balance' part already |
If I recall, the Lefh costs 400MP and 40-60 fuel correct? Comes in at 8 CP? So if it's against USF one of them is FORCED, not encouraged but forced to go a doctrine to deal with it? I feel like that's the biggest issue with USF/Brits in that since they don't have complete tools, having to go commanders to deal with casual things locks them out of options.
Furthermore If you used little fuel to force out a big purchase such as the priest, mission accomplished time to get tanks out faster then your opponent. Or as you say spend 250 USF munitions to counter it (Guess USF doesn't need bars or AT rounds). I'd like to see a 4v4 player actually buy some anti air to see if it could snipe the majors planes and others before revealing the Lefh.
I don't think this is a Lefh problem, I just think it's more of a damning decision to deprive Two allied factions of tools to deal with simple things.
There is a problem with LEFH's in 4v4, but they are not THE problem with 4v4. Otherwise, at least someone gets it... I've seen so many Allies getting spg's/arty out with nothing to take and hold ground and nothing to defend their arty pieces with from Panther dives.
Is COH2 teamgame even fixable. We can make as many changes as we want but in order for the game to be balanced in 1v1 it can't be balanced in 4v4. Thats a real shame if true as I bet most people play this game casualhardcore and play teamgames. |
I fail to understand how Axis can be bombarding your base sector with vet 0 LeFHs and not be flattened by SPGs. With CB gone are they somehow still oppressive vs your arty? Or is this a team bad commander pick situation?
You mean 3-shot by Elefant, Ele does 300 dmg per shot vs the 640 hp target. Spotting scopes are being removed next patch from Ele so it's really the infamous 65+ sight range 222 that you want dead here. If they don't have that then they're screwed.
How is a PaK 43 shooting your TDs? It rolled up to you on treads? Surprise shot reveal and then avoided for the rest of the game/flattened by Major recon + arty?
This early-to-mid game advantage of USF of course means they suffer in the late game, but their inf are by no means bad even then. They scale very well on vet. Sure they aren't beating vet III LMG Obers for cost but that's working as intended. Going toe-to-toe with pzgrens.
There are MUCH more LEFH's than SPG's in 4v4. I've had games where I can't keep up with multiple players with them. SPG's as a purchase are also much more punishing in 4v4 for Allies than building an LEFH is for Axis. I fail to understand how someone posting in a 4v4 balance thread has not experienced this. If you genuinely believe SPG's the counter to the LEFH, then those doctrines need to be made as readily available as they are for Axis. Or not? As USF only has one doc for that. Are you suggesting 4v4 USF players only play Infantry (not a bad decision, not fun) so they can not get flattened by LEFH?
The early-midgame advantage of USF is almost nonexistant in 4v4. Do you not know this? It would take a team on voip to capitalise on that in 4v4 reliably (yes it does happen, I know, I have replays too) , are you suggesting that 4v4 is balanced around organized teams with voip rather than pug's/random public player? |
Id personally just remove caches period. Go push if you want more resources. Also either remove or adjust the power of dedicated respurce points so holding both fuel isnt game ending.
I doubt Relic would approve such a change.
Just remove fuel points on 4v4 maps
These are interesting points of discussion. They highlight that, in general, Axis will win because they are better able to keep, save, and spend resources, whereas Allies cannot. Axis can do this because in team games their units are MUCH more effective at what they do.
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