Profile of Grumpy

Jump back to quoted post13 Jun 2015, 13:31 PMcomm_ash

You are going in circles. First you claim that the P4 vs. T34/76 matchup isn't as skewed as I made it out to be, then when I disprove you, you state pricing. Thats not an argument, that is coming up with excuses.

The P4 can absolutely beat the T34/76 1v1. However, there is no reason for the P4 to be able to not only beat the T34/76 in a 1v1 engagement, yet also be able to get ALOT better with veterancy. It would be fine if the soviets were able to reasonably get a TD out with T3, and tech up to a true T4 with good, specialist units, like the ostheer can, but currently soviet T3 < Ostheer T3, and Soviet T4 = Ost T3.

This leads to a game where the stock soviets at their latest point in the game, are worse than both German factions in every way. That is not Asymmetrical design, that is plain BAD DESIGN. If you expect the callin meta to ever be fixed, it HAS to come with a fix to the core soviet lategame, because currently the core soviets are completely hardcountered by a single Pak43/ELE/JT, since they have no armor capable of supporting their infantry against heavy TDs. (don't expect cons/penals to do shit lategame without armor support to kill axis long range lmgs squads), not to mention the fact that the low DPS zis is only enough to scare away armor, not kill it.

Just because Ostheer T3 is as rare as Soviet T3 is no reason to claim balance. Everyone plays the game to win at high skill levels, and thus go for callins, to fight Soviet callins. However, let us not forget that non-callin-meta Ostheer is perfectly viable. This is why we see so many strategies based around CAS doctrine that rely on infantry with maybe 1 tank work perfectly fine.

Soviet T3 needs to have some advantage over Ostheer lategame, seeing as how it is the end of your tech tree. USF gets great AI + great AT at the end of the tech. Ostheer gets the Panther + Brummbar, both very useful breakthrough tanks to support with your P4s that also scale very well. OKW gets the King Tiger nondoctrinally, which can be suppored by AT infantry and great armor options, as well as the Panther for the early late game. T3 soviets get 1 unit, the T34/76, which loses to everything out of the box, then loses EVEN MORE as units vet up. T3 + T4 soviets lose the armor equaity vs. Ostheer, but gain a Katyusha, which is useful to harass defensive positions and blobs, and an SU85, which is Hard Countered by a single Heavy AT source.

Price is no reason to make a unit terrible at all times in the game. The Sherman costs less than a P4, yet is much better vs. infantry and only worse vs. vehicles, plus has the utility of radio net and smoke. Grens are much cheaper than riflemen, yet scale much better into the lategame with lmgs and vet. The Jackson costs a lot less than a Panther, but is much better vs. heavy tanks. The T34/76 is less than the P4 and Sherman, but worse than both in EVERY WAY (except for like .3 speed and acceleration vs. the P4), while also being the sole source of both AT and AI in Soviet T3. If you want to increase the price, I don't think anyone will complain about the increase if it becomes a good scaling tank like the Sherman or the P4. If you decrease the price and keep same stats, noone will complain because then it will actualy be cost effective for and have the numbers it needs lategame to deal with heavies. If you do neither, and also kill callins, you get a Soviet faction that is even worse lategame than USF ever was.

Jump back to quoted post13 Jun 2015, 02:13 AMMr. Someguy

If they did that, the T-34/85 would need to see a nerf then. It's a bit strong to be your basic medium tank, and you wouldn't be able to field as many of them either. They should be at least P4 level if they're to be stock.

Jump back to quoted post13 Jun 2015, 00:16 AMCookiezNcreem

HMM commash..
im all for a slight t3476 veterancy buff +cost buffso it can actually duke it out with panzer 4s once vetted
But let's be real

Callins themselves will never go anywhere, they will always have a late game if you so choose.
The the T3485,KV1,Is2,ISU, ETC will STILL BE IN THE GAME duking it out with German steel in the late game

EXCEPT HOPEFULLY You won't be able to simply spam these good tonks and stay at t0>t2. That's what everyone hates

You'll simply have to tech to the callinz and make your late game better.
Just like Prosteer will hopefully have to do with their big cats, hopefully


Now this doesn't solve the issue of doctrines like reserve army not having a call in tank and therefore no late game worth a crap,because like you and others are saying the best tank the soviets have outside of "meta" doctrines is the t3476 and the only way to allow it to scale is going t3 t4 which is impossible CURRENTLY
the only real solution outside buffing the t34 to unreal levels

Is If they made a certain up gunned medium tank stock for all doctrines, and left other callinz to their specific doctrines....

Jump back to quoted post11 Jun 2015, 14:37 PMcomm_ash

OK then, here you go:

The current Soviet tech tree is based on choices. For lategame, soviet players who tech have a choice between T3 and T4. T4 offers units that complement a more defensive playstyle, and it does this well, by giving soviet players access to SU85s and Katyushas. T3, on the other hand, is supposed to be used for a more mobile and offensive lategame. So far the tiers seem to be alright, right? The problem is that the T34/76 doesn't scale well into lategame. It is alright when it first enters the battlefield, and can hold its own vs. other medium tanks well enough.

However, both German factions have access to tanks with high frontal armor in their tech tree (KT and Panther) which do well vs. enemy armor. This allows German players to rely on their stock units lategame, because their stock units can deal with anything the allies throw at them. If a soviet player went T3 and the game progresses into lategame, they will struggle, because they are relying on a single medium tank for their entire lategame armor composition.

On the other hand, USF, which is the only other faction that is expected to rely on mediums in the lategame (I am considering a panther a heavy for obvious reasons), has access to a Tank Destroyer in the same tier that houses their medium. The result is a well balanced force that, while fragile, has the capability to deal with many different threats with good micro and tactics.

The T34/76 on the other hand, as Soviet T3s entire lategame potential, must rely on itself to combat enemy Super Heavy TDs and Lategame armor. There is no other armor synergy, and with the T34/76 itself not being particularly great at the AI role, thanks to its lack of pintle mg and its low ROF, soviet AT guns become quite exposed vs. Axis high DPS long range infantry units. Not only this, but Axis tanks generally benefit more in terms of survivability with vet. The P4 for example, gets over 230 armor at vet 2, while the T34 gains 0 penetration with veterancy. This leads to a frustrating game where Axis armor becomes harder to kill, while T34s die at the same rate, making vetting T34s very hard for less reward.

In conclusion, the shoddy scaling of Soviet T3 is why Soviet players use callins almost exclusively currently. They are the only way for Soviets to have any scaling armor whatsoever, and are better out of the gate than stock armor anyhow. T4 is fine, but is very defensive, which leads to an inability to kill German armor. This makes Soviet T4 a battle to hold onto every bit of land, as counterattacks lategame are very hard without good armor to support shoddily scaling conscripts.

Now then, please tell me why I am wrong.