Shocked at how easy Germans are.

I think the issue is, as I've said before, is that Soviets are more micro-intensive, and need to use their abilities more. For instance, as Soviet you need to basically be constantly throwing Molotovs (and making snap judgements about where to actually toss - where the enemy squad is or where you think he'd move he's sees the throw) tossing AT nades, dodging, garrisoning/degarrisoning buildings, constant flanking. If trying to flank Ostheer tanks with T-34s, barraging with AT guns. If you want to ram something, you have to do a surprising amount of micro to get in range, get a running start, and hit from the back since the range was nerfed.

Contrast that to Ostheer. You could use rifle nades, but you don't have to. LMGs and Pgrens are arguably much better anti-infantry solutions, as you can't dodge them, and don't have to select-squad/click-ability/aim ability to fight well. At lower skill levels, this lowers the amount of squad micro dramatically. If your tank gets in trouble, you can reverse out, or pop smoke - no real need to flank and constantly micro tanks. Unless facing an IS-2 or ISU, you'll win with frontal facing most of the time and flanking SU-85s really isn't that hard if you know basic geometry. One of the only times Ostheer players are forced to have really quick reactions is getting fausts off and the former dominance of the M3 rush has trained even low level players to do this well.

So I disagree with the argument that balance trickles down. If one faction requires a great deal more micro then the appearance of balance among the top 10% is extremely deceiving, as those players have vastly superior micro and multitasking skills.

Right now Gren heavy play just stomps the shit out of Conscripts. You are forced to tech to combat a game opening 240mp unit if they are using LMGs. If you backtech you are very susceptible to getting FHT rushed, and the Gren blob is usually sufficient to deny the map control needed to get a fast T70 if done correctly.

The problem is
A) Grens get Rnade and Faust automatically through teching, the Russian equivalents delays your teching
B) Rifle nade has a very fast trajectory, and paired with the input lag can be difficult to dodge since there really isn't any indication that he will shoot one until the animation is already started. On the other hand, when a conscript charges close range it is already obvious he is going to use one before the long wind up even begins. Even IF the molotov isn't dodged, usually you can just walk out of it and take minimal damage since it only does very inconsistent DOT rather than all damage instantly dealt on contact. German anti infantry grenade comes free, Russians need to spend fuel just for area denial.
C) Grens get LMG which is non doctrinal and is superior to doctrinal PPSH
D) Very early LMG upgrades and/or rifle nades mean that Grens vet up much faster.

We have to be careful of anecdotal "evidence" for one side being stronger than the other at all levels of play because everyone's experience in games will be different.

So you are calling several posters here anecdotal?

I can't see any better evidence than looking at the results of the same player.

And

1) Unless you expect that a player for some strange reason would have excellent skills with german faction, but forget all about his skills when playing soviets, why on earth would the stats of the same player be so much different?

2) We've had the better results with germans than soviets mentioned several times. I have yet to see any intermediate or noob claim better results with soviets than germans.

I claim here and now that I have better results with soviets than germans.

Germans aren't easy, Soviets just need to stay in cover, camp in buildings and they gonna be fine

So you are calling several posters here anecdotal?

I can't see any better evidence than looking at the results of the same player.

And

1) Unless you expect that a player for some strange reason would have excellent skills with german faction, but forget all about his skills when playing soviets, why on earth would the stats of the same player be so much different?

2) We've had the better results with germans than soviets mentioned several times. I have yet to see any intermediate or noob claim better results with soviets than germans.

No im stating a common sense statement that what seems hard for one player will not be for another

@sluzbenik
Those same 10% soviet players generally also play top level ostheer too.

Whereas german squad kills come from powerful passive damage like pgrens shooting at scripts 5 feet away, soviet squad kills can be produced by abilities like frag grenades and 120mm precision strikes. With input lag and the fact that you cant pay attention to everything all the time, soviets have no problem killing ostheer squads. Oh and soviet guns work just fine for that too I've lost plenty of squads sitting afk on a fuel point when my attention was elsewhere (((

Unless facing an IS-2 or ISU, you'll win with frontal facing most of the time and flanking SU-85s really isn't that hard if you know basic geometry.

this made me chuckle >D

Anyone see last night twitch cast by sib? He and Von teamed up and used the new DLC German commanders. Absolutely unbeatable combination. And they weren't particularly playing against noobs neither. 2 games were against AndysRippin and IronRoman. I don't think its beatable in 2v2 and sure hope they upload one of those games to see how ridiculous OP the combination of assgrens and Ostruppen are.

I think the issue is, as I've said before, is that Soviets are more micro-intensive, and need to use their abilities more. For instance, as Soviet you need to basically be constantly throwing Molotovs (and making snap judgements about where to actually toss - where the enemy squad is or where you think he'd move he's sees the throw) tossing AT nades, dodging, garrisoning/degarrisoning buildings, constant flanking. If trying to flank Ostheer tanks with T-34s, barraging with AT guns. If you want to ram something, you have to do a surprising amount of micro to get in range, get a running start, and hit from the back since the range was ...

From the other side: German infantry is quite fragile, you have to click a LOT to keep them alive. One overlooked molotov, zis barrage or staying to long on one spot once 120mm s on a field means terrible losses. Keeping vehicles from oraahing AT throwers requires a lot of attention as well.
Deploying Mg is a bit chess game due to its long setup times and it is quite easy to loose it due to one miss-click.

Regarding the german easy mode i found soviet combination of best AI infantry and best AT unit in game capable steamroll everything in its path...

We haventseen actual figures of faction performance throughout the ladder.

We simply cant say for sure if Ost is performing better in lower levels of skill, or not.
Especially not for the games most recent patch version.

Im sure Relic knows though, but they havent released them, far as Ive seen. Nor made any statements, whether public or private, as to whether its true or not.

Ummm, you need figures? I don't see why exactly

You play the game, its quite easy to see how someone with lesser skill will have trouble coordinating Soviet army.

There are threads and threads on Steam and COH2 Official going of about Germans being OP, and asking for "real tanks" 'real HMG' and infantry that 'doesn't suck vs Armor'

Use your logic, its quite easy to come to logical conclusion where the issue might be for lesser skilled players..

Baba, please dont talk to me anymore. Ill do the same for you too. Thanks in advance.

Baba, please dont talk to me anymore. Ill do the same for you too. Thanks in advance.

• be me playing russians
  
• WOW what the fuck is this shit. im even using my feet fingers to micro this fucking shit. he just sits there. and afther my 40 pounding he comes out with a tigger. my feet hurt from so much clicking. gg
  
• fuck this shit fuck this game im going German
  
• enemy types WOW (ohhh the fucking irony)
  
• i totally agree with him.
  
• strange out of nowhere 1 second lag.
  
  
• you have been kicked.
  
  

since he was of the SturmTiger clan and there are sturm tiger guys here. is there a way i can report him to your sturm tiger moderators so you can shame him?? i have the replay saved wich curiously saves his name.

nevermind found the sturmtiger subforum.

Personally, I'd also say that I have the impression that Soviets are slightly harder in mid+- play. However, when I look at my replays and check the APM and map (field presence) in the replay analyzer, there really doesn't seem to be any correlation between those or the faction played.

I also just downloaded a bunch of replays posted by some of the best players of this game and the (average) APM often was within 5-10% of each other, often times the German player even having higher APM. Overall, it seems to make much more of a difference who is the player than what faction he plays. Some have very high APM (some use Autohotkey, though, so I needed to filter those) and others rather low APM (e.g. VonIvan).

Overall, I'd say that Germans and Soviets probably require a slightly different skill set but the "amount of micro" seems to be roughly equal and the required skill set is probably such that low/mid players are having a slightly easier time with one side, either because of preference or because they don't have the very balanced skill set of high level players (or haven't honed it yet).
The evidence from high skilled replays, however, suggests that for those good players, the faction plays a rather secondary role.

soviet skillset. flanking nading, capping, artylering, mg positioning, teching choises, tank micro.

german skillset. wich units to build, wich upgrades to take, a+clicking.

soviet skillset. flanking nading, capping, artylering, mg positioning, teching choises, tank micro.

german skillset. wich units to build, wich upgrades to take, a+clicking.

undostrecuatro skillset. soviet fanboy shitposting

undostrecuatro skillset. soviet fanboy shitposting

master of the obious. be happy cause im not playing russians anymore.

Imo Soviets currently require more technique and a more focused mindset then the Ostheer do, my only problem atm with the Ostheer though is retarded assgren spam.

Imo Soviets currently require more technique and a more focused mindset then the Ostheer do, my only problem atm with the Ostheer though is retarded assgren spam.

i would like if you could expand on this since you play soviets a lot.

what kind of technique?
and what do you mean with fosued mindset?

soviet skillset. flanking nading, capping, artylering, mg positioning, teching choises, tank micro.

german skillset. wich units to build, wich upgrades to take, a+clicking.

dream on.... tank micro: ohh where is the ram button...there you go =)