Walking stuka needs some adjustments

Thats the weakest point of Wstukas, their high risk/high reward is the surprise effect of long range accurate volleys.

Problem that you don't have any chances to retreat your team weapon on whole front when Wstuka fires. Any small moment that you missed and you lose very big amount of troops. No any rockarty could give you that. Katy could shredded blobs, werfer could too. But these are blobs, blobbers must suffer, especially when rocket arty on field.
And again - routes of retreat. If we could change routes to retreating squads in live action - Wstuka didn't be so much shock and then OKW players will be in hard situation, when enemy could evade even retreating squad your precise strike. It's just live exploit of situation where player don't have any power. You just unwilling viewer of doom of your soldiers. It's not fun.

If you can see where it is aiming is rather easy to detect the firing pattern.

Just remember old b4 laser-guided ability? It was fun when you heard sound of shot (and you have some thoughts about it, especially when repairing your panther) and know that it will hit to you? Very fun to play with in russian roulete when your opponent have 0 risk?
Wstuka the same exploit, couldn't kill p4, but could ruin all your defense in one volley and make huge MP drain.

... we are arguing that the lethality comes too early.

Sorry to step in, the too early expression is not objective enough, at least for everyone to settle up a common ground of discussion. (or it seems like you dont like your team weapons getting wiped too early)

I think the worst situation is tightly related to the Pak howitzer, there is a whole thread for it so i wont offtopic, but the fact that OKW can deal with it using wstukas is solidified withing the game design. If you nerf one, then you should nerf the other one too.

When would be the ideal timing for wstukas to show? IMO between mediums and other rocket infantry or its opportunity window will just disappear

The circle which comes in 4 sets of 4, so you have plenty of time to dodge most of the rockets

Except the katusha has a quicker ToT and has more radius. Ergo, you have less time when compared to a stuka.

There is a reason why a Stuka is pretty bad vs a blob right?

Problem that you don't have any chances to retreat your team weapon on whole front when Wstuka fires. Any small moment that you missed and you lose very big amount of troops. No any rockarty could give you that. Katy could shredded blobs, werfer could too. But these are blobs, blobbers must suffer, especially when rocket arty on field.
And again - routes of retreat. If we could change routes to retreating squads in live action - Wstuka didn't be so much shock and then OKW players will be in hard situation, when enemy could evade even retreating squad your precise strike. It's just live exploit of situation where player don't have any power. You just unwilling viewer of doom of your soldiers. It's not fun.

Which is why you dont retreat vs a Stuka, you move a unit in any direction and it probably will escape the line of doom.

Problem that you don't have any chances to retreat your team weapon on whole front when Wstuka fires. Any small moment that you missed and you lose very big amount of troops. No any rockarty could give you that. Katy could shredded blobs, werfer could too. But these are blobs, blobbers must suffer, especially when rocket arty on field.
And again - routes of retreat. If we could change routes to retreating squads in live action - Wstuka didn't be so much shock and then OKW players will be in hard situation, when enemy could evade even retreating squad your precise strike. It's just live exploit of situation where player don't have any power. You just unwilling viewer of doom of your soldiers. It's not fun.

Mostly agreed, if the barrage fall off were delayed, some team weapons could have a chance to move and only very distracted ones will get hit.
I also think that aligning the AoE patter to the vehicle orientation could help to increase the skill required to use wstukas

Which is why you dont retreat vs a Stuka, you move a unit in any direction and it probably will escape the line of doom.

Told this to my MG - "Packs your shit faster Yuriy, wstuka is firing." While regular infantry could do this, your team weapon probably not, especialy if missed even one moment.

If wstuka soo bad and have so many disadvantages - make all arty rock arty the same? 6 deadly, laserguided rockets. Then all players will be in equal positions. Sounds as BS, but it's better way to see situation from both sides.

If wstuka soo bad and have so many disadvantages - make all arty rock arty the same? 6 deadly, laserguided rockets. Then all players will be in equal positions. Sounds as BS, but it's better way to see situation from both sides.

Dont be like that, no one is arguing wstukas are bad.

They have its differences to other rocket arty. Oriented towards fighting team weapons rather blobs.
Its true they are very effective at it and somehow OKW other indirect fire option (leiGs) are better vs emplacements and garrisons, if we exclude smoke.

There could be a option to make leiGs cover the actual wstuka role and at the same time tweak wtsukas into a katyusha 'clone'

Please point out where I quote someone talking about its timing.

All I'm trying to say is to keep it the way it is but delay it until flak hq is built. If that can't be done make it less lethal before flak hq is up.

There is a reason why a Stuka is pretty bad vs a blob right?

Yes. That's why I'm suggesting it be changed

The katusha only has much faster ToT if move it close, which you need to for it be truly effective. This is a part of the whole picture. The stuka plays by none of the range/LOS rules

Having some scatter helps with blobs, hurts vs single support weapons. The stuka is too good against single support weapons, not good enough against blobbers

Sorry to step in, the too early expression is not objective enough, at least for everyone to settle up a common ground of discussion. (or it seems like you dont like your team weapons getting wiped too early)

I think the worst situation is tightly related to the Pak howitzer, there is a whole thread for it so i wont offtopic, but the fact that OKW can deal with it using wstukas is solidified withing the game design. If you nerf one, then you should nerf the other one too.

When would be the ideal timing for wstukas to show? IMO between mediums and other rocket infantry or its opportunity window will just disappear

Yea, if one gets nerfed the other one should.

The circle which comes in 4 sets of 4, so you have plenty of time to dodge most of the rockets

I would like it to be cheaper and delayed in timing. And i agree with adamiricz, it should be better against blobs, worse at deleting single units

4 sets of 4 rockets are meant to give time to players to press that R button, otherwise its a wiping machine. Also kat rockets land way faster followed by its sound queue than wstukas.

There is no reason to change wstukas into other role for the sake of it. If you want to change that then you must adjust other units aswell, making the solution bigger than the problem. Devs cant afford trial and error if we dont discuss first which changes should be implemented.

All I'm trying to say is to keep it the way it is but delay it until flak hq is built. If that can't be done make it less lethal before flak hq is up.

Your proposition is a bit too much harsh for OKW players.

The best solution is either middleground or tweaking, redesigning with improvements rather pulling the game down

They have its differences to other rocket arty. Oriented towards fighting team weapons rather blobs.
Its true they are very effective at it and somehow OKW other indirect fire option (leiGs) are better vs emplacements and garrisons, if we exclude smoke.

There could be a option to make leiGs cover the actual wstuka role and at the same time tweak wtsukas into a katyusha 'clone'

Make leig as USF pak howi - problem solved (and thread to rebalance pak howi could be closed - 2 birds 1 stone). Basic mechanics such as "distance-scatter" must work for all units no matter which side.

There is plenty reason to change walking stuka. Units that are too reliable at instantly deleting full-health squads have been repeatedly nerfed throughout this games lifespan

If the leig needs to be better at countering support weapons that should be talked about too

4 sets of 4 rockets are meant to give time to players to press that R button, otherwise its a wiping machine. Also kat rockets land way faster followed by its sound queue than wstukas.

There is no reason to change wstukas into other role for the sake of it. If you want to change that then you must adjust other units aswell, making the solution bigger than the problem. Devs cant afford trial and error if we dont discuss first which changes should be implemented.

Your proposition is a bit too much harsh for OKW players.

The best solution is either middleground or tweaking, redesigning with improvements rather pulling the game down

Less lethal could mean turning it into a mortar halftrack before flak hq. I don't think it is harsh because okw have other options. Leigs, flamenades, Luchs, and pumas still exist.

The katusha only has much faster ToT if move it close, which you need to for it be truly effective. This is a part of the whole picture. The stuka plays by none of the range/LOS rules

A true player knows that forcing a retreat is already a victory, there is no need to get the wipes every single time a katyusha rocket volley is fired.

You can always retreat or move infantry squads when under fire of wstuka and they wont get wiped, just take not not to make them run over the line AoE. Therefore kats and stukas are similar when referring to normal infantry.

Dont make me start with team weapons vs katyushas, you know how that will end...

LOCK IT TO TIER 4, MAKE OBER TO MED TRUCK, INFRARED TO MECH

Make leig as USF pak howi - problem solved (and thread to rebalance pak howi could be closed - 2 birds 1 stone). Basic mechanics such as "distance-scatter" must work for all units no matter which side.

We both have a true agreement. Nice idea about leigs. (i must confess i liked the leig semi ATG idea though)

LOCK IT TO TIER 4, MAKE OBER TO MED TRUCK, INFRARED TO MECH

Yeah i do like that very much too. But it will still wipe the crap out of their team weapons, just a couple of minutes later.
Obers on med truck sound fantastic though

No one is saying the katyusha is bad. The walking stuka is too good at one specific thing, that is what im saying

Obers in battlegroup? Lol that weapon upgrade better be much later. If 7man conscripts have to wait for t4, lmg obers in med truck is not okay

The strength of each rocket arty is also its weakness.
Allied arty has scatter so that you have no idea exactly where it's going to hit... But neither does your enemy.
Axis rockets go where you tell them to but if the enemy figures it out they don't do anything at all.


That said, I think hit and wipe or miss and do nothing is awful design and am in favor of Widening the far aoe and tightening the close aoe to the point that more or less the entire area within the target strip takes damage, but only at 6 precision points is it likley to wipe