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Pak Howitzer needs adjustment

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1 Aug 2019, 23:43 PM
#141
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 888

I'm gone for 4 days and there's another 5 pages... neat. Not going go through and read it all, though.

Why don't we just make the PAK a 100% clone (cost, squad size, stats, etc.) of the LeiG? Most people seem to think that the LeiG is in a balanced (or possibly slightly under powered) state, so that seems like the easiest solution. Design wise, they're already basically identical: Long range, indirect fire, can't retreat, requires non-optimal tech choices to unlocks... Really, the only difference is that the LeiG gets smoke, but that's because OKW has no non-doc smoke units.





Except that the OKW variant, the LeiG, is objectively weaker, and no one ever seems to complain about it.


Because the LeiG got buffed through the roof a few patches back and the only ones that ever cry for nerfs lately are Wehrboo Axis fanboys.
1 Aug 2019, 23:49 PM
#142
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

But to say the leig18 is more fragile is entirely inaccurate.


No it isnt. Tell me, how much damage does it take to de crew a Pack? You may ignoranly say 240 damage as 3 x 80 = 240. This is incorrect. It haveing 5 models means that it has 5 models to spread out its damage opposed to the 4 of an LEIG. This means, in theory a Pack can take 378 damage before decrew whereas a 4 model team can take 319. While this of course assumes a perfect distribution of damage, 5 models can spread out than 4.

While you may agure the RA counters this, you are now incorrect in saying that "leig18 is more fragile is entirely inaccurate"
1 Aug 2019, 23:53 PM
#143
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 960

The Leig is more just like a mortor than anything. Cloning the pack to be like the Leig would just make it a late mortor which usf already have access to at the start.

Edit: so I think it should be more of a howitzer than a mortor.



Except it would still have more barrage range and heat shells.


jump backJump back to quoted post1 Aug 2019, 23:43 PMCODGUY
Because the LeiG got buffed through the roof a few patches back and the only ones that ever cry for nerfs lately are Wehrboo Axis fanboys.


So I went through all the patches in the last 3 years, and these are all the changes (the first change being when they re-designed the unit). Nerfs are in bold.



Not exactly buffed through the rough, imo.
2 Aug 2019, 00:13 AM
#144
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1



No it isnt. Tell me, how much damage does it take to de crew a Pack? You may ignoranly say 240 damage as 3 x 80 = 240. This is incorrect. It haveing 5 models means that it has 5 models to spread out its damage opposed to the 4 of an LEIG. This means, in theory a Pack can take 378 damage before decrew whereas a 4 model team can take 319. While this of course assumes a perfect distribution of damage, 5 models can spread out than 4.

While you may agure the RA counters this, you are now incorrect in saying that "leig18 is more fragile is entirely inaccurate"


You are ignoring/forgetting that the pak Howy decrews when the 3rd man dies, unlike leig and all other mortars which de-crew when the 2nd man dies

This is the main reason why nerfing it from 6 to 5 man crew was a silly change. It should get 6 men back, and be nerfed in different ways
2 Aug 2019, 00:51 AM
#145
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



No it isnt. Tell me, how much damage does it take to de crew a Pack? You may ignoranly say 240 damage as 3 x 80 = 240. This is incorrect. It haveing 5 models means that it has 5 models to spread out its damage opposed to the 4 of an LEIG. This means, in theory a Pack can take 378 damage before decrew whereas a 4 model team can take 319. While this of course assumes a perfect distribution of damage, 5 models can spread out than 4.

While you may agure the RA counters this, you are now incorrect in saying that "leig18 is more fragile is entirely inaccurate"

Pack howies are more vulnerable to indirect fire and explosives though, since 3 models are clustered around the gun and can really easily be decrewed in one direct hit on the gun from explosive weapons. Leig will at least have 2 men left and still be a crewed weapon.
2 Aug 2019, 01:16 AM
#146
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 888




Except it would still have more barrage range and heat shells.




So I went through all the patches in the last 3 years, and these are all the changes (the first change being when they re-designed the unit). Nerfs are in bold.



Not exactly buffed through the rough, imo.


The cost, pop, and scatter reduction are MAJOR buffs to that thing and they outwight any of those nerfs. It's basically made Brit emplacements useless.
2 Aug 2019, 02:27 AM
#147
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279




Except it would still have more barrage range and heat shells.




So I went through all the patches in the last 3 years, and these are all the changes (the first change being when they re-designed the unit). Nerfs are in bold.



Not exactly buffed through the rough, imo.


you misunderstand. there ARE buffs, and since its an axis unit to codguy that is buffed through the roof. doesnt matter that its barage was neutered and its vet gutted, its cheaper too so its buffed beyond belief
2 Aug 2019, 12:14 PM
#148
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



you misunderstand. there ARE buffs, and since its an axis unit to codguy that is buffed through the roof. doesnt matter that its barage was neutered and its vet gutted, its cheaper too so its buffed beyond belief


Your reasoning makes no sense.
2 Aug 2019, 13:10 PM
#149
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

I'm gone for 4 days and there's another 5 pages... neat. Not going go through and read it all, though.

Why don't we just make the PAK a 100% clone (cost, squad size, stats, etc.) of the LeiG? Most people seem to think that the LeiG is in a balanced (or possibly slightly under powered) state, so that seems like the easiest solution. Design wise, they're already basically identical: Long range, indirect fire, can't retreat, requires non-optimal tech choices to unlocks... Really, the only difference is that the LeiG gets smoke, but that's because OKW has no non-doc smoke units.





Except that the OKW variant, the LeiG, is objectively weaker, and no one ever seems to complain about it.



Leig is cheaper than pak howitzer and fine unit now
2 Aug 2019, 15:08 PM
#150
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



Your reasoning makes no sense.

Kappa.

2 Aug 2019, 15:31 PM
#151
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066


Kappa.



So was I Kappa
2 Aug 2019, 16:02 PM
#152
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



You are ignoring/forgetting that the pak Howy decrews when the 3rd man dies, unlike leig and all other mortars which de-crew when the 2nd man dies


But they both require 3 men to decrew, but the Pack Howy has 5 men to soak damage whereas others have 4, which is a slight advantage.
2 Aug 2019, 16:04 PM
#153
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



So was I Kappa

Kappa.



But they both require 3 men to decrew, but the Pack Howy has 5 men to soak damage whereas others have 4, which is a slight advantage.

Except for the fact that 3 of them are clustered right around the gun and one direct hit will decrew the pack howie.
2 Aug 2019, 16:14 PM
#154
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



Not exactly buffed through the rough, imo.


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2019, 01:16 AMCODGUY


The cost, pop, and scatter reduction are MAJOR buffs to that thing and they outwight any of those nerfs. It's basically made Brit emplacements useless.


The "Veterancy 5 20% scatter reduction bonus added" is a comparative nerf since in that patch all other mortars got their scatter bonuses at vet 3.
2 Aug 2019, 16:17 PM
#155
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



Except for the fact that 3 of them are clustered right around the gun and one direct hit will decrew the pack howie.


Against explosives, not small arms.

Furthermore what explosives is the Pack worrying about? Mortars? OST and OKW's are outclassed. Tanks and rocket arty? Of course those are good against it, but it isnt exactly good design to require 200+ fuel to counter a unit that comes @ 55 fuel
2 Aug 2019, 16:18 PM
#156
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359

as an average to below average player I think the pak howie is the ultimate noob litmus test. if the axis player is getting shredded by pak howie all game long, hes a noob. a good player knows how to deal with it quickly and effectively. you NEVER see high level players getting murdered by pak howies because theyre easy to counter.

i think its just the ultimate pub stomping unit. protip to all the axis sadfaces in this thread; literally drive your fucking p4 next to it and shoot it. congrats, its decrewed.
2 Aug 2019, 16:43 PM
#157
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

as an average to below average player I think the pak howie is the ultimate noob litmus test. if the axis player is getting shredded by pak howie all game long, hes a noob. a good player knows how to deal with it quickly and effectively. you NEVER see high level players getting murdered by pak howies because theyre easy to counter.

i think its just the ultimate pub stomping unit. protip to all the axis sadfaces in this thread; literally drive your fucking p4 next to it and shoot it. congrats, its decrewed.


Noob or not, it doesn't require much skill to just park the pak howi somewhere behind the lines, let its huge auto attack range 2 shot wipe support weapons and grenadiers that need to be still to be effective.
2 Aug 2019, 16:48 PM
#158
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 888

as an average to below average player I think the pak howie is the ultimate noob litmus test. if the axis player is getting shredded by pak howie all game long, hes a noob. a good player knows how to deal with it quickly and effectively. you NEVER see high level players getting murdered by pak howies because theyre easy to counter.

i think its just the ultimate pub stomping unit. protip to all the axis sadfaces in this thread; literally drive your fucking p4 next to it and shoot it. congrats, its decrewed.


Pretty much this. The only time the Pack Howitzer is usually effective is with it's autofire which depends on the Axis player being an idiot and clustering his units never moving them. Even then there is a lot of luck and RNG involved. It's hilarious to see people complaining about this unit. Look at this whole section of the forum. Its all Axis cry babies wanting to nerf some USF or UKF unit.
2 Aug 2019, 18:04 PM
#159
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 960

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2019, 16:48 PMCODGUY
Pretty much this. The only time the Pack Howitzer is usually effective is with it's autofire which depends on the Axis player being an idiot and clustering his units never moving them. Even then there is a lot of luck and RNG involved. It's hilarious to see people complaining about this unit. Look at this whole section of the forum. Its all Axis cry babies wanting to nerf some USF or UKF unit.


OST is basically designed around team weapons and static infantry, though:

MG42 - Core unit, Needs to be stationary to fire
LMG-Grens - Core unit, can only fire when stationary, has incredibly long 'ready aim' time
PAK ATG - Core unit, needs to be stationary to fire
Mortar - Core unit, needs to be stationary to fire, good vs. suppressed units (from stationary MG42)

In addition, all of those units are 4-model squads, and all the team weapons always have two of those models right beside the weapon.


The only non-doc OST infantry that can "stay mobile" are: Pioneers, PGrens and Snipers. You can't make a build out of those.

2 Aug 2019, 18:07 PM
#160
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



OST is basically designed around team weapons and static infantry, though:

MG42 - Core unit, Needs to be stationary to fire



USF is basically designed around moving units, should we nerf the Mg42 because it counters it?
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