Pak Howitzer needs adjustment

Snip

Being dismissive has been very useful to prove your point.

But no matter how many times I have told to not compare pak howie's with former howitzers, you still do. Only on those aspects your point gets validated, and that's cherry picking in the first place.

With regards USF tech rework, yes it was good. But prior to it, USF were designed around a poor versatility and expensive side teching faction. After the patch those weights got lifted and many units became OP.

To turn upside down arguments in your favour is only proving your points wrong.

Would you care to show everyone how much a pak howie costs compared to the team weapons it faces? How effectively it counters them with WP and AA?

I know you wont answer, because you didn't before, but I already said that to fix the current pak howie, the auto attack could be removed and its barrage fire buffed, it could even become 6 man again. It will be the only (120mm) stock howitzer, with mobile capabilities, able to relocate at necessity, not like OH or SU howitzers that are doctrinal.

If that isnt unique enough I think we need to discuss about a whole new meaning of balance

Being dismissive has been very useful to prove your point.

But no matter how many times I have told to not compare pak howie's with former howitzers, you still do. Only on those aspects your point gets validated, and that's cherry picking in the first place.

With regards USF tech rework, yes it was good. But prior to it, USF were designed around a poor versatility and expensive side teching faction. After the patch those weights got lifted and many units became OP.

To turn upside down arguments in your favour is only proving your points wrong.

Would you care to show everyone how much a pak howie costs compared to the team weapons it faces? How effectively it counters them with WP and AA?

I know you wont answer, because you didn't before, but I already said that to fix the current pak howie, the auto attack could be removed and its barrage fire buffed, it could even become 6 man again. It will be the only (120mm) stock howitzer, with mobile capabilities, able to relocate at necessity, not like OH or SU howitzers that are doctrinal.

If that isnt unique enough I think we need to discuss about a whole new meaning of balance

I'm glad I finally got a decent post from you, even if it only proves you haven't been paying attention to what anyone else has been talking about this entire time, seeing as how I already compared prices in this post.

Howie: 340mp (250mp 55 fuel tech)
120mm: 310mp (don't even remember whats needed for this besides commander)
81mm (grw34): 240mp (80mp 10 fuel)
ISG: 270mp (300 MP 35 fuel)

Of course, provided no oversight you would probably tell me I should have included machine guns in that comparison as well, given the half-minded tangents you seem so prone to.

I don't know how you think I "cherry pick" stats when I have over and over again told you where the pack howitzer differs from the other howitzers in this game, over and over and over again, how the M1 depends upon autoattack instead of a powerful barrage. I have told you, again over and over that the reason for this comparison is because it functionally better resembles a howitzer than a mortar, given the lack of smoke and middling mobility, and the lack of any stock unit in the USF roster to effectively perform this role otherwise. You have deliberately ignored this reasoning despite the logic behind it, apparently for the sole reason that some are doctrinal.

Maybe if you had lead with this point about the teching, we wouldn't have wasted this much time finally extracting something constructive from you.

But hey, this is a start, and I will gladly be less dismissive of you if your posts continue in this direction. Is your proposal still centered around barrage aoe or something else? What did you think of elchino7's proposal?

I'm glad I finally got a decent post from you, even if it only proves you haven't been paying attention to what anyone else has been talking about this entire time, seeing as how I already compared prices in this post.

Why can't you just act kindly lol? You are always on the offensive, to the point of it being hilarious.

Why can't you just act kindly lol? You are always on the offensive, to the point of it being hilarious.

I have tried to be reasonable as I can with all present, even PMing an apology to Doomlord52 for harshness earlier in the thread, and would be more than happy if I could be with him, but the difficulty getting through to him throughout this thread has been completely unacceptable. I'll hold back on anything else with hope that this can end, however.

Why can't you just act kindly lol? You are always on the offensive, to the point of it being hilarious.

When people run out of facts, they repeat themselves over and over, or turn into personal territory to field their arguments...

If someones shows me im wrong i will stand corrected and thats it. But others simply dont like to be proven wrong, their ego is higher than their ideas.

When people run out of facts, they repeat themselves over and over, or turn into personal territory to field their arguments...

If someones shows me im wrong i will stand corrected and thats it. But others simply dont like to be proven wrong, their ego is higher than their ideas.

He says, ignoring the questions and supposedly much-revered facts offered to him once more.

To immerse himself in a false reality where extant, competing indirect fire units cannot be compared, and users cannot look back at posts made on previous pages...

I don't know why I even tried.

When people run out of facts, they repeat themselves over and over

Jump back to quoted post30 Jul 2019, 20:59 PMMazianni

I have over and over again told you, where the pack howitzer differs from the other howitzers in this game, over and over and over again

Please, dont make this discussion as easy...
but anyways...

how the M1 depends upon autoattack instead of a powerful barrage. I have told you, again over and over that the reason for this comparison is because it functionally better resembles a howitzer than a mortar, given the lack of smoke and middling mobility, and the lack of any stock unit in the USF roster to effectively perform this role otherwise.

M1 depend on autoattack, like mortars, but they are howitzers because they must have range (but they also have to be cheap as a mortar and have autoattack, not like a howitzer. They have to have OP acc and be durable because Wstukas wipe them. O K)
Scotts are just there for decoration, are they? Mortars are useless too, dont they?
M7 priest are doctrinal but they are a clear example of how howitzers should not work, they dont have autoattack.

I think you are playing the wrong faction. Check next time if its USF or its something else.

M1 depend on autoattack, like mortars, but they are howitzers because they must have range (but they also have to be cheap as a mortar and have autoattack, not like a howitzer. They have to have OP acc and be durable because Wstukas wipe them. O K)

What are you going on about here? Mortars can retreat too, the Pack Howitzer can't. How does that fit in with your comparisons? The pack howitzer autoattack is also the exact same range as that of the Ostheer mortar. Only the barrage differs.

I never said anything about making the Pack Howitzer more durable; again you choose to deliberately ignore my posts. I have repeatedly offered nerfs that make the Howie more vulnerable to counterfire, such as teardown and setup nerfs. While the price with or without teching is certainly not equatable to any of the 240mp mortars, I have also repeatedly offered a cost nerf, such as moving the cost to 400mp, close to what it was before the crew size "nerf", which landed the unit in the 340mp position that it is in today. I have made these suggestions IN MY MOST RECENT REPLIES TO YOU.

The reason why the autoattack 'has to' be good right now is that is the single strength of the unit, as it lacks a barrage comparable to any of the barrage-only weapons, and would be subsumed by the mortar in the light harassment role; a major nerf to the autoattack without any rework would mean this weapon would not be produced. Again, I have stated this in almost every single post I have made. Why pay an extra 100mp + 50mp, 20 fuel teching cost for a slower, clumsier mortar that can't even deploy free smoke?

Scotts are just there for decoration, are they? Mortars are useless too, dont they?
M7 priest are doctrinal but they are a clear example of how howitzers should not work, they dont have autoattack.

I think you are playing the wrong faction. Check next time if its USF or its something else.

The EXACT point I have been trying to make to you is that the pack howitzer doesn't get used as a mortar and, if basically made to be like a mortar via autoattack nerfs, would never be used considering the 240mp one at tech 0 would do the job just as well if not better (FREE SMOKE). Likewise the priest is, yes, doctrinal. I don't know what your point was there, as you seem to be implying I am setting the Pack Howitzer as the standard for howitzers when I have merely claimed that it best resembles the function of the howitzer in role than that of the mortar, and would need to further emulate it if the autoattack, the subject of this entire nerf debate (see where I am going here?) is nerfed or removed. You repeatedly miss the point of these responses, where I continue to say the same thing over and over to you and it just goes over your head somehow.

Bringing up the Scott is an interesting point, as you are correct in finding some overlap between these two units. It seems the cost of the Scott makes it less vulnerable to complaint threads like this, considering it also retains a somewhat powerful autoattack. Granted, the Scott comes a tier later, has a smaller AOE and appears to be less accurate and certainly far less consistent, but in return it gains higher base damage, and is also far more mobile. It even has a smoke barrage. Since you are apparently an expert on USF, I should wonder what your opinion is on the Scott and where it sits balance-wise, and what makes the case of the Pack Howitzer apparently so different to you.

This is too easy...
Show Spoiler
TL;DR:
Pak howies are the fruitful son of mortars and howitzers and only makes it a whole different thing as itself and that also gives pak howitzers lots of value. It has none of the downsides but all the advantages. So far your posts only reinforce that idea and each time you compare pak howies to mortars/howitzers you do only to justify its OPness in a redundant fashion. If you were to aling pak howies either to mortars OR howitzers it must get nerfed either on its cost OR its AA, after and only after such change, the whole USF rooster can be adjusted. Its not original to be OP, it was original to be an expensive opportunity cost (a thing that its not anymore)
The only thing that makes pak howies (AA) unique is the sole attribute for what they are to be nerfed.

Imo the issue is that the pak howi acts like a mortar and not enough like a howitzer. It's more of a pak mortar+. The barrage range is such a bonus that having good AA as well seems over kill. Perhaps if people AR so worried about micro, reducing the ROF significantly and lowering the cooldown on the barrage might help. The usf already HAS a mortar without the need for another one that can barrage at double the range. It just makes unnecessary overlap

This is too easy...
Show Spoiler

TL;DR:
Pak howies are the fruitful son of mortars and howitzers and only makes it a whole different thing as itself and that also gives pak howitzers lots of value. It has none of the downsides but all the advantages. So far your posts only reinforce that idea and each time you compare pak howies to mortars/howitzers you do only to justify its OPness in a redundant fashion. If you were to aling pak howies either to mortars OR howitzers it must get nerfed either on its cost OR its AA, after and only after such change, the whole USF rooster can be adjusted. Its not original to be OP, it was original to be an expensive opportunity cost (a thing that its not anymore)
The only thing that makes pak howies (AA) unique is the sole attribute for what they are to be nerfed.

In so many words: I compare it to mortars and howitzers because they are indirect fire units. I cannot stress this enough. I am tired of explaining it over and over to you. I specifically compare it to howitzers because that is what it would have to essentially more closely emulate to stay relevant if the autoattack is nerfed, principally by buffs to the barrage, either damage or recharge or both. At one point you seemed to somewhat agree with me on this, suggesting a aoe increase on the barrage. If you don't, whatever. This whole hangup over "YOU CANT COMPARE IT TO X OR Y" has been a pointless line of discussion from the very beginning, but whatever.

I don't think I've asked for a fuel cost in this thread, I did offer it in the last thread. I have offered price and AA nerfs, the latter provided that some other aspect of this unit be buffed in such a way that it does not become irrelevant. Judging from your posts you seem to be at least theoretically warm to that idea, so this whole argument is still revolving in circles. The fact you don't think this thing would disappear from play with a major AA nerf, despite agreeing that this is the primary draw to the unit and despite even saying that nobody rushes or techs for this unit as it stands now, seems entirely counter-intuitive, but whatever. That is your opinion. Fine.

Pack howitzer being better than a 240mp t0/t1 mortar seems more than acceptable for it being more expensive, and restricted behind more expensive tech. Even after the tech work, it was not the subject of major consternation until the 6-man "nerf" that dropped the price by 40mp. You disagree, fine, whatever. We are posting in a thread more or less concerned with changing that, in any case.

I got your PM. I have been amicable to a nerf from essentially my very first post in this thread, no matter my opinion on the pack howitzer being OP or not. I have voiced my concerns as to what shape this nerf would have to take, and offered a multitude of suggestions as far as nerfs - and reworks - of this unit are concerned. If you have nothing new to say, no new ground to trod, then let's just end this here.

Well at least we both agree on how the situation should be solved and i think thats the important part. Its fair to say that more than a nerf, a rework would be more appealing for all players, those who use the pak howie and those who dont.

Maybe if pak howie had a toggle stationary mode to activate its auto attack or simply buffing its barrage can be a good idea.
Its fine to disagree about reworking the pak howie, but its also good to open the unit spectrum to new possibilities, maybe enhancing the gameplay of the faction and the game altogheter.

(sry if you mentioned something similar to what i just posted, its very late in the morning here and i just need to rest)

Why people try to killng fine unit?

Why people try to killng fine unit?

Because it's not fine? That would be my guess based on the pages of replies talking about how it's not fine and needs changed.
Granted now that you have shown up and said it's fine I suppose we have an executive authority on the matter and should probably close the thread

HEY EVERYONE, BLANCAT SAYS IT'S FINE, SO EVACUATE THE THREAD. YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO HOME BUT YOU CAN'T STAY HERE.

There you go champ. Wish you had shown up earlier and said it was a non issue so we could have saved the days and days of discussion that might lead one to think that it ISN'T fine. But they would be mistaken. Obviously.

Less damage than a howitzer and less mobile than a mortar. What category is most proper for the pack howitzer, if I had to choose between those two items, I can't say, but generally, since howitzer happens to actually be in the name of the unit, I err in that direction. At the end of the day, they are all indirect fire units, and comparisons can be made nevertheless in either direction.

And yes, it is expensive. Is it worth it's price? Yes. Because of it's barrages? No. Range? The autoattack range is even the same as the Ostheer mortar, and I would be willing to suggest that two grw34s would probably do more damage overall than a single pack howitzer (480mp vs 340mp). But you pay for the consistent output it delivers; having an autoattack that is effective at dislodging a static enemy. This is why any proposal to remove or nerf autofire MUST either allow the M1 to still perform this role adequately still, or (more likely, given the limitation of barrage and the probability that autofire would be overnerfed) allow it to deal more damage in bursts via buffed barrages, making it more like the other howitzers in the game.

And yes, it is very fragile. Certainly as much as, if not moreso, than any 240mp mortar in the game. Saying walking stukas of all things are the only counter to the pack Howie is like saying the M36 is the only counter to Axis armor (and might as well imply that mortars themselves are all uncounterable). As said already, the autoattack range is already matched by all of your own Ostheer IDF options; the pack howitzer's range advantage is only apparent in its barrages. The crew all wear 1.25 target size bullet magnet vests, and clump directly around the howitzer at all times, hence the often repeated and very much accurate claim that a single P4 hit could decrew it. To make matters even easier, I have repeatedly suggested some sort of teardown/setup nerf to make this unit even more vulnerable to either call-in artillery/strikes or flanks/pushes than it already is.

Furthermore, we've already discussed methods of reworking this unit in a way that removes or nerfs autofire while keeping it useful; you're the one who has continuously fallen apart over the mere suggestion that the Pack Howitzer be anything but a long range mortar (and, apparently, the only one you want USF to have, if you still believe anything you said in your first post in this thread), when it has been abundantly clear over and over that nobody is going to pay 340 manpower and 8 popcap for a mortar that cannot lay free smoke and which is utterly fucked if ever contacted by the enemy since it cannot retreat. Nor will anyone pay the same for a barrage-only howitzer that is generally incapable of killing a single model.

You refuse to answer my questions because you have absolutely no real suggestions beyond an impulsive nerf to essentially remove a unit from the game. The fact your main complaint about the unit is now it's range, when everyone up to this point, and even yourself, have been talking about the autoattack capability, proves as much.

There's no argument to cherrypick. You have offered absolutely nothing constructive this entire thread.

Beautiful *chef kiss*

And yes, it is very fragile.

Yeah if the USF player is brain dead and doesnt micro his back when he is pushed. Yes of course the thing will go down if you are able to get to it, but USF can easily repulse such attacks and they can easily recrew it.

A unit being "fragile" isnt a carte blanche to have an exceedingly good offense. The LEIG is more fragile and it doesn't get a giant AOE.

Yeah if the USF player is brain dead and doesnt micro his back when he is pushed. Yes of course the thing will go down if you are able to get to it, but USF can easily repulse such attacks and they can easily recrew it.

A unit being "fragile" isnt a carte blanche to have an exceedingly good offense. The LEIG is more fragile and it doesn't get a giant AOE.

The leig and Pack Howitzer require the same amount of killed crew to decrew (three). The difference is leig crew have a RA of 1, compared to the pack howitzer crew of 1.25, and the pack howitzer is more expensive to recrew (requiring three models) as well as in general. This is why the mortar fragility comparison was made specifically, as all mortar crews in this game also have a received accuracy of 1.25, but are capable of retreat.

You can say whatever you want about the damage of the Pack Howitzer autoattack, as that has been the subject of all the nerf discussion in this thread thusfar. But to say the leig18 is more fragile is entirely inaccurate.

I will preemptively note that I have not called for any buffs to the survivability of this unit and have in fact offered the opposite on multiple occasions.

Why people try to killng fine unit?

Because it's a USF unit. If it were an OKW unit they'd be complaining that it's cool down is too long.

I'm gone for 4 days and there's another 5 pages... neat. Not going go through and read it all, though.

Why don't we just make the PAK a 100% clone (cost, squad size, stats, etc.) of the LeiG? Most people seem to think that the LeiG is in a balanced (or possibly slightly under powered) state, so that seems like the easiest solution. Design wise, they're already basically identical: Long range, indirect fire, can't retreat, requires non-optimal tech choices to unlocks... Really, the only difference is that the LeiG gets smoke, but that's because OKW has no non-doc smoke units.

Because it's a USF unit. If it were an OKW unit they'd be complaining that it's cool down is too long.

Except that the OKW variant, the LeiG, is objectively weaker, and no one ever seems to complain about it.

I'm gone for 4 days and there's another 5 pages... neat. Not going go through and read it all, though.

Why don't we just make the PAK a 100% clone (cost, squad size, stats, etc.) of the LeiG? Most people seem to think that the LeiG is in a balanced (or possibly slightly under powered) state, so that seems like the easiest solution. Design wise, they're already basically identical: Long range, indirect fire, can't retreat, requires non-optimal tech choices to unlocks... Really, the only difference is that the LeiG gets smoke, but that's because OKW has no non-doc smoke units.





Except that the OKW variant, the LeiG, is objectively weaker, and no one ever seems to complain about it.

The Leig is more just like a mortor than anything. Cloning the pack to be like the Leig would just make it a late mortor which usf already have access to at the start.

Edit: so I think it should be more of a howitzer than a mortor.