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What Role Should Heavy Tanks Serve?

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Stug life
5 Jul 2019, 20:12 PM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jul 2019, 20:06 PMKirrik


I did, both P4 are superior to allied mediums in AT and AI. OKW P4 is overall better tank than doctrinal T34-85 you can argue against as much as you wish I'm not going to waste my time persuading you otherwise

I never claimed Panther does everything better than P4 (another trend of yours - making things up then arguing against them), I just claimed it's better against TD's
yea I know it’s useless to persuade u , u are a fan boy, u ignore stats and only say what u like, p4 ai is worse than Sherman, okw p4 cost 140 fuel and only has 60 more armor and slightly better ai than normal panzer 4, the t 34 85 cost 130-140 fu has 800 hp and much better gun than p4 so it’s not worse, u are just pulling opinions from ur ass again

Btw, quote”Panther simply does it better, hardly any point in P4 when you can field Panther from same tier.” so are u denying ur own word ?
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T.R. Stormjäger
5 Jul 2019, 20:13 PM
#22
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jul 2019, 18:28 PMLago

  • What sort of enemy army composition should they be good against?
  • What should they be able to counter?
  • What should counter them?
  • When should they be available?
  • Where do you think they should fit into the game?

I struggle to believe there's no option other than as shock units.


They should be good againt an opponent with less than 4 dedicated AT platforms.

They should be able to counter Generalist medium tank spam (76s, M4s, P4s, Cromwells), infantry blobs (AoE) and isolated vehicles.

They should be available 5-10 mins after the last tech structure.

They should be slow and mediocre tanks that take a while to vet up, but when they do they can carry a game.
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Esxile
5 Jul 2019, 20:15 PM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jul 2019, 19:59 PMStug life
u first said p4 easily beats all medium (false) then u said it beats all TD(false again) and then said the P5 does everything the p4 does but better (false) btw panther is 180, that’s 2 t 34


Ostheer Pz4 beat the Sherman in a direct combat due to better overall AT stats and has faster reload than Jackson so here again win vs it. It has purposely be made like that so the Jackson doesn't hard counter it.

So yes, pretty much all Ostheer arsenal beat the USF sherman so why would you build more than one? And its even worst with OKW.

---

Heavy tanks already have roles, Some are heavy generalist other are TDs other are meatshield etc... The question you have to ask is why would you build 2 mediums over 1 heavy.
Why would you take the risk to have 2 tanks that are squishier, have less raw fire power, twice more complicated to micro and if you lose one, you lose the investment you did in it. 1 heavy is far more simple to micro, have usually better firepower and twice the armor and health of any medium. You really need to screw hard to lose it otherwise just revert engine when you reach mid health.

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KiwiBirb
5 Jul 2019, 20:16 PM
#24
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I think heavies should be snare-able with only one snare, and have less range than mediums.

Heavies should, imo, be a panther + a P4 with crap mobility’s a trade off.

They should need AT support because they are slow and have little range, and AI support because they are easily snared.
Most of my ideas are probably bad, - but I try and share lots of them

and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
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Enkidu
5 Jul 2019, 20:18 PM
#25
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I feel more like they should be the generalist p4 of OST’s final tier. A panther with AI too.
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Mr.Flush
5 Jul 2019, 20:50 PM
#26
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Nothing wrong with the heavies before the patch. Well, maybe the kt needs a small buff.
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Mr.Flush
5 Jul 2019, 21:02 PM
#27
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I do feel like usf should get e8's without a doctrine, but they should require additional tech to unlock them. The ai could be toned down a tiny bit and the penetration go up slightly. The jacksons fire rate would be toned down so p4's counter them. Jacksons hvap would become its standard round, but the dmg changed to 160.

The e8s would be similar in role to Panthers, and the Jackson would only be built to counter heavies. I think that is the best way to balance usf tanks
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Farlion
5 Jul 2019, 22:09 PM
#28
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Outside of the KT, which is useless, the balance of heavy tanks in 1v1 and 2v2 is fine as is. 3v3s and 4v4s will always be an unbalanced mess, no matter what changes are applied.
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LoopDloop
5 Jul 2019, 22:43 PM
#29
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I agree that heavies should be just scaled up generalists, but as to OP, I think TDs are less of a "silver bullet" and more the only viable choice. Mediums won't ever be able to flank a competently controlled heavy since they're not that much faster than a lot of heavies and because of prevalence of snares, and infantry AT and AT guns struggle to pen and will often get killed by any of the heavies faster than they can do any damage to it.
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distrofio
5 Jul 2019, 22:53 PM
#30
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Heavies were the answer or normal tanks becoming able to tank fight.
IMO heavies should become the best AT option, because of offensive capabilities and durability. On the oher side AI shoulb de pretty bad and tactical mobile units (scouts, rocket and arty) should be able to run salefy but not other medium tanks(acc tweaking involved)

Compared to actual heavies, mayor at/ai/armor changes should occur and with the exception of the rushed kv1, all other heavies should force enemies into heavies or FLANKING TDs *no excuse
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Tiger Baron
6 Jul 2019, 10:13 AM
#31
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jul 2019, 18:28 PMLago

  • What sort of enemy army composition should they be good against?
  • What should they be able to counter?
  • What should counter them?
  • When should they be available?
  • Where do you think they should fit into the game?

I struggle to believe there's no option other than as shock units.


Just my opinion here, as always:

Like in the real war, they were and (again in my opinion) should be, generalists.

Everything in it's sight range I suppose.

Tank Destroyers, AT guns, massed anti-tank infantry.

Late Game, as this is not Steel Division I don't think you should be able to rush them. In CoH all heavy vehicles were always doctrinal and came in the late game, requiring the most exp to unlock as to not disturb the balance of power.

The "Where do you think they should fit" question confuses me, if you mean by role I'd suppose a spearhead of an assault force.

1 unit Armies while sounding nice doesn't really make sense to me, I mean many Tiger crews for example dispatched many T34s piecemeal 1 by 1 and cut down swathes of (Soviet) infantry in front of them charging forwards as long as their MG barrels didn't overheat or they ran out of ammo, but they could be overwhelmed by numbers of both those of course.

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T.R. Stormjäger
6 Jul 2019, 10:28 AM
#32
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jul 2019, 22:53 PMdistrofio
Compared to actual heavies, mayor at/ai/armor changes should occur and with the exception of the rushed kv1, all other heavies should force enemies into heavies or FLANKING TDs *no excuse


THAT right there is the issue.

Go to reality for a second. A T-34/85 getting behind a Tiger is an instant dead Tiger. No ifs or buts. Dead. Kaput.

Go to steel division 2, which is quite realistic in its portrayal of distances, flanking, combat capabilities etc. As long as you can pen a heavy tank, you can kill it as easily as a medium tank.

No go to coh2. You can pen the heavy tank as much as a medium tank, you can even get behind it, but none of that matters because of the gargantual health given to heavy tanks.

This is the root of the issue for me. Heavies got armour nerfs, but they have so much health to compensate that flanking them is not viable because they would take 6-7 shots from a medium tank to die, which gives plenty of time to bring help, shoot it back, have it miss shots while chasing etc.

This is not going to be popular, but I'd like to see Heavies trade health for front armour (and a subsequent nerf to repair rate to prevent faster repairs) in order to make flanking much more viable and lethal.
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Lago
6 Jul 2019, 10:37 AM
#33
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 10:28 AMT.R. Stormjäger
This is not going to be popular, but I'd like to see Heavies trade health for front armour (and a subsequent nerf to repair rate to prevent faster repairs) in order to make flanking much more viable and lethal.


The problem there is unless you start getting to insane armour values, all you achieve is cementing tank destroyers as the only counter.

I don't know if this is even within the capabilities of the mod tools, but what if instead of more frontal armour, they had frontal damage reduction?

Say, they've got 720 HP like a premium medium, but 50% DR on the front, meaning attacking one head on gives it 1440 effective hit points (the same as a Churchill?).

That'd make them more effective at the spearheads they're designed for, but also much more rewarding to flank.
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T.R. Stormjäger
6 Jul 2019, 10:56 AM
#34
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 10:37 AMLago


The problem there is unless you start getting to insane armour values, all you achieve is cementing tank destroyers as the only counter.

I don't know if this is even within the capabilities of the mod tools, but what if instead of more frontal armour, they had frontal damage reduction?

Say, they've got 720 HP like a premium medium, but 50% DR on the front, meaning attacking one head on gives it 1440 effective hit points (the same as a Churchill?).

That'd make them more effective at the spearheads they're designed for, but also much more rewarding to flank.


Absolutely! That’s actually a great idea!

That way they are still not able to push through your entire army up front, but still effective leading the charge, and by flanking with TDs or mediums you can hurt them badly!
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distrofio
6 Jul 2019, 17:42 PM
#35
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 10:28 AMT.R. Stormjäger


THAT right there is the issue.
...
This is not going to be popular, but I'd like to see Heavies trade health for front armour (and a subsequent nerf to repair rate to prevent faster repairs) in order to make flanking much more viable and lethal.


Yeap, we both agree with a new role for heavies, as another different tier of tanks.
But take a moment and consider that the game engiane can can only do so much, rear armor accounts for pen chance and not damage received. I'd you flank a heavy and want to kill it one shot it's very hard to balance, since rear armor also means the back half of the tank and not the rear side.

If heavies get low hp pool but gargantuan armor no one can complaint that they are RNG since 99.9999 of times you just wont pen.
Wasn't there a deflection damage value? To mitigate a bit a heavy bring focused hard.

The other thread talking about super ATG, with this design they can become useful, giving them the pen to deal with heavies. It's a static platform compared to a mobile td

Snares should not affect a big heavy tank. Heavies are there to deal damage to tanks and not infantry and making heavies vulnerable to infantry is again tieing heavies to an early exploitable Achilles weak spot.
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distrofio
6 Jul 2019, 17:45 PM
#36
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 10:37 AMLago


The problem there is unless you start getting to insane armour values, all you achieve is cementing tank destroyers as the only counter.
...

Tank destroyers are the only tool to deal with heavies already. Mediums help a bit and infantry almost never.

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LoopDloop
6 Jul 2019, 18:42 PM
#37
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 10:37 AMLago


The problem there is unless you start getting to insane armour values, all you achieve is cementing tank destroyers as the only counter.

I don't know if this is even within the capabilities of the mod tools, but what if instead of more frontal armour, they had frontal damage reduction?

Say, they've got 720 HP like a premium medium, but 50% DR on the front, meaning attacking one head on gives it 1440 effective hit points (the same as a Churchill?).

That'd make them more effective at the spearheads they're designed for, but also much more rewarding to flank.

+1

Increasing frontal armor and decreasing health would lead to heavies' survival rates being totally dependent on RNG, which would be frustrating on both sides.

Damage reduction on the other hand sounds like an excellent idea, but I'd imagine it'd be tricky to implement.
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zerocoh
6 Jul 2019, 18:53 PM
#38
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The same role as every tank in WWII had? Infantry support.
Even assault guns like SU76 and Jagtiger had some sort of infantry supporting capability.
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T.R. Stormjäger
6 Jul 2019, 18:59 PM
#39
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 18:42 PMLoopDloop

+1

Increasing frontal armor and decreasing health would lead to heavies' survival rates being totally dependent on RNG, which would be frustrating on both sides.

Damage reduction on the other hand sounds like an excellent idea, but I'd imagine it'd be tricky to implement.


The KV1 has a damage reduction if I'm not mistaken. They could probably just copy the principle for rear armour hits.
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Katitof
6 Jul 2019, 19:01 PM
#40
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2019, 10:37 AMLago


The problem there is unless you start getting to insane armour values, all you achieve is cementing tank destroyers as the only counter.

I don't know if this is even within the capabilities of the mod tools, but what if instead of more frontal armour, they had frontal damage reduction?

Say, they've got 720 HP like a premium medium, but 50% DR on the front, meaning attacking one head on gives it 1440 effective hit points (the same as a Churchill?).

That'd make them more effective at the spearheads they're designed for, but also much more rewarding to flank.

You can't apply damage modifier to part of unit.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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