17 Pounder vs Jagdtiger

Hi,

I wanted to suggest a bit of a rebalance for these 2 units. Currently the 17 pdr has less range than the Jagdtiger which doesn't seem fair. I also do not think this range difference is intentional as on paper they both have the same range (80), thus allowing them to shoot at each other. However due to the 17 pdr's base-plate it can be targeted from further away by the Jagdtiger.

The 17 pdr is a very decent counter to the elefant so it definitely serves a roll as a counter to axis superheavies and a backstop to prevent TD creep, with the elefant's advantage being it can move. The Jagdtiger however due to it's slight range advantage makes the 17 pdr completely redundant as it can destroy it from a safe distance and move out of it's way. OKW are not short on counters to the 17 pdr, (stuka, smoke+flame nade, LeiG, zeroing artillery etc.) However UKF do struggle against the Jagdtiger only being able to flank it, which is not possible when fighting against decent players, or using Sextons.

It seems silly to me that a Static unit has less range than its mobile counterpart, especially as LefHs have more range than Priests for this reason.

Essentially I'm either suggesting that the 17 pdr's range is increased marginally to adjust for it's large base-plate thus allowing it to retaliate and the 2 can shoot at each other or that the Jagdtiger's range is reduced (as it already has damn plenty).

Seems reasonable. Won't make the unit much stronger (not to the point we see a spam anyways) but still a nice buff to help warrant its price.

JT range was lowered to 78 precisely for this reason if my memory serves me correctly.

Walking stuka isn't a counter to emplacements.

As long as 17p is a stock units it should not have more range.

As long as 17p is a stock units it should not have more range.

Not asking for it to have more range than the JT. He's asking for it to have the SAME range.

As long as 17p is a stock units it should not have more range.

Then perhaps JT doesn't deserve to have its 70+ range?
Its not like its 500 armor provides it insufficient protection.

Then perhaps JT doesn't deserve to have its 70+ range?
Its not like its 500 armor provides it insufficient protection.

True, jagdtiger is very OPie

Every emplacement buff is a bad thing

Every emplacement buff is a bad thing

I would swap it for a Tortoise in a heartbeat.

But as we only have the emplacement to work with, and its a dedicated but stationary counterpart to the Jagd, how about we address the range issues between the two?

You can make the issue worse attacking ground. The 17pdr is too low to the ground to scatter particularly long but a Jagd or Elephant can skip their shells further forwards, from their lofty casemate gun positions.

Every emplacement buff is a bad thing

That leaves us with nerfing the range of unit its supposed to hardcounter.
ATM JT effortelessly is able to hardcounter its own hardcounter.

JT range was lowered to 78 precisely for this reason if my memory serves me correctly.

78? What a stupid fucking value... I thought it was it was 85?

Then perhaps JT doesn't deserve to have its 70+ range?
Its not like its 500 armor provides it insufficient protection.

1) PLS do not qoute if what you are going to post is completely irrelevant with my post.
17p being a stock unit and JT having 500 armor are two COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT issues.

2) Now pls at least try to check your stats before posting:
17p and JT have the exact same range of 80.

That leaves us with nerfing the range of unit its supposed to hardcounter.
ATM JT effortelessly is able to hardcounter its own hardcounter.

And NO 17p is hard counter to Tanks not to a expensive doctrinal heavy TD.

Actually JT is supposed to counter static targets and that is why it has a HE barrage.

Walking stuka isn't a counter to emplacements.

Ummmm... It is the single best counter to emplacements in the game bar zeroing artillery. Yes brace negates a portion of damage first time round but you should be either using the stuka to force a brace and then push for a kill with an incendiary nade or panzerschreks. Or attack it and force them to brace and then stuka them when they are on cooldown. Regardless, OKW have plenty of options. Any attack without follow up rightly is less rewarding, as is true throughout this game. Thus when using a stuka you should have some follow up. If it's really that much of an issue, just build a second stuka and the 17 pdr is dead every time.

1) PLS do not qoute if what you are going to post is completely irrelevant with my post.
17p being a stock unit and JT having 500 armor are two COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT issues.

2) Now pls at least try to check your stats before posting:
17p and JT have the exact same range of 80.


And NO 17p is hard counter to Tanks not to a expensive doctrinal heavy TD.

Actually JT is supposed to counter static targets and that is why it has a HE barrage.

I checked the stats, in my first post I stated that although they on paper have the same range, the Jagdtiger had the ability to outrange the 17 pdr due to the size of the base-plate.

The 17 pdr is a counter to Armour in general, including superheavies, if it weren't it wouldn't have been given 525 pen, the same as the Jagdtiger, which means it cannot bounce.

I have no complaints about the Jagdtigers HE barrage, that should be a valid counter in that at vet 1 you can use the HE barrage with its 125 range to force the 17 pdr to brace in order to attack it. Although it's intended use by the way is to attack infantry.

Also even if the Jagdtiger couldn't outrange the 17 pdr (or exploit so it could), the Jagdtiger would probably still counter the 17 pdr due to it being able to retreat out of firing range whilst the 17 pdr cannot. However allowing the 17 pdr to get some shots off whilst it did so would make the Jagdtiger slightly less of the enormous issue it is to deal with.

Whilst people are saying emplacement buffs are a bad thing (which it generally is) I would argue that an increase of the 17 pdrs range by 5 or 2 or whatever would be completely negligible in almost every other scenario. It would also actually not really as such be a buff, but due to the 17 pdrs gun currently firing from behind its base-plate rather than from it, it would actually be a "fix" not a "buff".

17p is fine its a stock option with low tech cost and a cost around half the manpower of JT and 1/3 of the fuel.

There are plenty of other option to counter a JT that so cost inefficient that is mostly used in 4vs4 games.

There are plenty of other option to counter a JT that so cost inefficient that is mostly used in 4vs4 games.

British counters such as? The only effective one I can think of is sextons which will never kill it, only make it relocate. Sure your allies have IL2 bombing runs and the like but what do UKF players have themselves?

Flanking is only valid if your opponent is incompetent and some maps don't allow it anyway (e.g.-angermunde) and the things front armour is basically impenetrable. Sure you could maul it with PIATS if your opponent had no eyes or arms but that sacrifices any hope of dealing with their infantry and they could shut that down with any form of suppression. There's nothing left in the british roster both stock and commander specific save firing 20 tulips at it for 2000 munitions.

Lol, people still claiming JT op ?

Lol, people still claiming JT op ?

The unit itself is not OP, the point of the thread is about balancing it against the 17 pdr. In which the 17 pdr is outranged when statistically they are identical, thus it is intended that they should have equal range but they do not.

The unit itself is not OP, the point of the thread is about balancing it against the 17 pdr. In which the 17 pdr is outranged when statistically they are identical, thus it is intended that they should have equal range but they do not.

17P pounder is stock emplacement with low tech that can hit the field allot earlier, while it cost a bit less the half the manpower and around one third of the fuel. It is design and balanced around countering tanks.

It not design and should not be design to counter JTs.

As another user would say "apples and oranges"

The JT on the other hand is unit that another user would say was "gutted" by the continues nerfs see little action in anything bellow 3vs3.

JT can beat a 17p and that is simply fine.