OKW - Grand Offensive - Feedback

You keep repeating that like a holy mantra.
You a Relic developer? Or do you actually work as a game designer?
No?
Then sorry to burst your bubble, but its not "design point of view", its "Vippers point of view" and as much as you try to make them the same, they are not, were not and never will be the same, so use the correct one.


Oh like they already do with Command Panther for YEARS? Its AI may not be the greatest, but it doesn't have to be with how strong voks are, it serves the exact same role regular heavies do in "wait on lights for call-in heavy" strats.

That's absolutely nothing new for OKW.

There is also nothing wrong with elite infantry and heavy armor call-ins, these doctrines may be preferred, but they don't automatically make other doctrines bad in any way. Less appealing, sure, but certainly not bad, especially after we've got couple of doctrinal reworks.

Going Volks into Luchs/Puma into Command Panther means you can´t get adequate late game infantry. Volks are a weakness in late game. Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that OKW doesn´t need AI from their tanks because of Volks. Compared to the typical Allied late game infantry Volks are pretty shit if we are honest.

Grand Offensive gives you infantry that scales well and basically becomes "elite" after vet 3 and also gives you minute 0 snares. And Spec Ops as it is right now is already too strong compared to any other OKW doctrine other than maybe Overwatch. So yeah a better Spec Ops would be completly braindead.

250 MP Füsilier spam with smoke and mass sprint is also a stupid combination.

Lol, i first thought that people were joking about okw getting a tiger call in ^^
Disclaimer: i haven't played the commander mod yet. I haven't read through this thread really well.

My thoughts:
Why give okw (counts for every faction imo) a callin tank? Haven't we learned that ALWAYS callin tanks give problems in balance. Yes they open up new strategies, but atleast bind it to some kind of teching. There is indeed a reason why command panther gets picked over all balanced commanders if you only have one okw player.
Let's not fall into mistakes we made over and over again

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1. You're completly wrong about the "Offensive Packages". There was NO reason for the mod team to include the ability in the doctrine only to "improve OKW Mp40" because the MP40 buff came via the reworked Assgrens. You can find that explanation even in the patch notes!
And please dont always come back with the same mantra - "Dont include abilities /units that need a rework"-... you could at least acknowledge that there are abilities /units that fit thematically AND need a rework. Thats the reason for why i want "Offensive Package" to be replaced with a reworked "Sector Arty".

The buff come only to Assault Grenadiers that are Ostheer unit and did not even effect the Pioneers let along a unit in another faction.

I am not sure what you are arguing here since you yourself agree with me and want the ability removed from the commander.

2. There was a vote- you remember- and the community decided that the new OKW doctrine should get a Tiger I. You dont have to like it but we all should respect the decision. Yes, changes are needed but you can't take away such a huge unit after the vote.
And OKW can already combine elite infantry with a, all around tank: JLI with KT, Falls with KT, Obers with KT. Yes, these units are not available from the start but there in a lot of games OKW players replace Volks with these units.

What people voted does not necessarily translate into to good design. And Relic has a long tradition not actually base their decision in votes.
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Do I really I have to explain the difference in call in tank and KT?
The commander is simply a better version of special OP providing a better all around units and having superior abilities. The only thing Special op has is the flares and those are only good in team games.

I have little problem with Tiger itself but if ones does use it one should make the rest of abilities really weak or tie Tiger to tech cost (maybe have the same requisition as the KT).

The buff come only to Assault Grenadiers that are Ostheer unit and did not even effect the Pioneers let along a unit in another faction.

I am not sure what you are arguing here since you yourself agree with me and want the ability removed from the commander.

I was sure that the changes to Wehrmacht MP40s would benefit OKW too. My bad if im wrong on that.

Stuka smoke Drop/Tactical movement

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In addition the combination of PF sprint and tactical movement is ridiculous. Actually passive sprint should be removed from all units including USF officers. It could however become a timed ability.

The sprint from the Panzerfusiliers' vet 5 passive and the Tactical Movement do not stack.
I've tested it.

In addition, their vet 5 passive sprint will probably replaced if Panzerfusiliers keep their Panzerschrecks upgrade path anyway.

OKW Offensive Package
The offensive Package is completely UP ability and imo simply introduced to "fix" OKW MP-40. That is a step in the wrong direction since those fixes should be done in balance patches and not commander patches.

Smartie is right here. Volksgrenadier MP40s get changed with the Assault Grenadiers changes because they use the same weapon "1: assault_grenadier_mp40" (Artillery Officer as well). The Offensive Package is in the commander because it was in the winning proposal. The Volks MP40s would've been changed regardless.

The Offensive Package is in the commander because it was in the winning proposal. The Volks MP40s would've been changed regardless.

I forgot that Kpen included the offensive package in his submission. You are right in prioritizing
the "official" ideas as long as they are balanced.

About "Tactical movement":
"Breakthrough" (Wehrmacht Kessel doctrine) could be interesting if the team would consider replacing "Tactical movement".

As far AT weapon on P.F. goes if ahead I would suggest they get an upgrade that allows them to get 2 panzerfausts as weapons not snares with bazooka characteristics.

These weapons could have to option be put away similar to SP minesweeper.

One has to keep in mind that buff like these in P.F. will make JT allot harder to counter thou since it will have good support from AT infatry.

From a thematic point of view Panzer Fusiliers are more of reckon troops and double shreck feel rather odd on them.

this

The sprint from the Panzerfusiliers' vet 5 passive and the Tactical Movement do not stack.
I've tested it.

In addition, their vet 5 passive sprint will probably replaced if Panzerfusiliers keep their Panzerschrecks upgrade path anyway.

It does not matter if stacks or not (and it did not actually vetted a PF just to test it). If it stacks the same JLI stacks it would ridicules if it does not it loses meaning in late.

And my main point is that passive sprint should be removed from all units or replaced by an active ability even if it at no cost.

Smartie is right here. Volksgrenadier MP40s get changed with the Assault Grenadiers changes because they use the same weapon "1: assault_grenadier_mp40" (Artillery Officer as well). The Offensive Package is in the commander because it was in the winning proposal. The Volks MP40s would've been changed regardless.

Again there is a little point for this upgrade since PF are designed to replace the VGs especially since the allot weaker/inconstant with the PPsh one.

And unit should be using different files else you get unintended buffs like the one T-34/85 got.

It does not matter if stacks or not (and it did not actually vetted a PF just to test it). If it stacks the same JLI stacks it would ridicules if it does not it loses meaning in late.

Why would it lose its meaning? Tactical Movement can be used in offensive situations and is mostly meant for that. The vet 5 passive sprint can not be used in combat. Big difference in purpose.

Again there is a little point for this upgrade since PF are designed to replace the VGs especially since the allot weaker/inconstant with the PPsh one.

It's there because it was in the winning proposal. It might get changed, it might not. It helps keep the commander's power level in check while offering versatility.

Panzerfusiliers are not designed to replace Volksgrenadiers, they are designed to be an alternative, and have several drawbacks and advantages compared to Volksgrenadiers to make having both at the same time a viable choice as well as going with a full build of either one. The Offensive Package helps with that.

And unit should be using different files else you get unintended buffs like the one T-34/85 got.

Meh, the same can be said for having different files, giving unintended discrepancies. Like Ostheer and OKW Panzer IV having different rear armor values. In the end the only thing that matters is that the devs know which files are shared and which other units changes might effect. And as for the current MP40 changes, it's a conscious choice that it also effects Volksgrenadiers and the Artillery Officer.

...

This debate has started drifting off topic which is OKW - Grand Offensive commander.
I stand still stand by my points thou:
1) Passive sprint should be removed from all units or replaced by a timed ability even if free.PFs running around decamping sectors should not be allowed.
2) Tactical movement and smoke can prove problematic since it allows to easily bypass defenses even base HMG nest
3) MP-40 upgrade should become more consistent with the PPsh upgrade and has little to offer to the commander.
4) The rear armor of the PzIV J should be fixed since it is due to oversight, the T-34/85 mgs also.

Offensive Package only have MP40 look little boring and VG already have MP44 upgrade，if I say，I want mortar halftrack replace this package

This debate has started drifting off topic which is OKW - Grand Offensive commander.
I stand still stand by my points thou:
1) Passive sprint should be removed from all units or replaced by a timed ability even if free.PFs running around decamping sectors should not be allowed.
2) Tactical movement and smoke can prove problematic since it allows to easily bypass defenses even base HMG nest
3) MP-40 upgrade should become more consistent with the PPsh upgrade and has little to offer to the commander.
4) The rear armor of the PzIV J should be fixed since it is due to oversight, the T-34/85 mgs also.

I am totally agree with the “MP-40 has little to offer to the commander” part.

MP40 upgrade looks redundant here.

Reasons:
1. MP40 and G43 are both assault weapons.
2. We have off-map smoke.
3. Panzerfusilliers can use HE grenade.

I don't think the double schreck on fusiliers is as bad as many may think. The rifles on fusiliers are pretty bad and only having 3 of them is not nearly enough to fend off vetted and equipped allied infantry, even in team game blobs. This is especially considering that fusiliers equipped with the schrecks won't gain that much vet outside of hitting tanks, which has been heavily reduced since the time of volks blobs. Due to this, the passive sprint, which immediately turns off once considered in combat, would be probably be fairly hard to be achieve with these AT squads. Even with two or three squads of G43 units in the blob, they will still have trouble against an equal costing allied force. Elite allied infantry, such as guards, paras or commandos, usually overpower G43 fusiliers.

I am heavily against the idea of the AT rifles without a harder hitting AT snare as you would likely never get them. You would basically be in the same situation using G43 fusiliers as you would with stg volks when it comes to AT and infantry fighting capacity.

The recon plane and tactical advance are both fine abilities, neither amazing nor useless.

For the MP40 volks, it seems so out of place when fusiliers are 0cp. I don't really see why you would use these when Feuerstorm exists with the same thing but better. It could have something like an Obers STG(not IR) addition or replaced with assault artillery(probably buffed/changed).

The Tiger seems okay but the vet 4 and 5 will probably be seen only slight more often than the vet 4 and 5 of the KT (basically never). Something like the Command PIV or mortar halftrack could replace it and find a more niche role in the OKW tank arsenal that the Tiger I doesn't quite have without needing the insane vet requirements. The Tiger could alternatively have a special tank commander upgrade that gives this ability earlier in a much weaker state and receive the better buffs later on.

Panzerfuselliers and OKW Offensive Package in the same Doctrine does not make sense.
The reason is obvious.

I have little idea.....
If most player thinke Panzerfuselliers can upgrade 2 Panzerschrecks is OP,maybe can give this upgrade to Sturmpioneer？Move this ability to Offensive Package，PF return to original，but change CP to 1 or make it like now？

Is the Elite Command Tiger ability bugged? Had it happen that it seemed to jump over vet 4 straight into 5, and the new ability that appears (greys out the level 4) wouldn't activate. You could toggle it, see the 25 muni subtracted, but immediately was refunded and the ability not triggered.

How about replacing the MP 40 upgrade with some indirect fire support, like off-map artillery or mortar HT?

Indirect fire support fits offensive theme, too.

I don't think the double schreck on fusiliers is as bad as many may think. The rifles on fusiliers are pretty bad and only having 3 of them is not nearly enough to fend off vetted and equipped allied infantry, even in team game blobs.

Double Panzerschreck Panzerfusiliers badly lose to Rear Echelons.
https://youtu.be/TpKHjls00zQ?t=1100

What if we removed the Goliaths from Overwatch and stuck them in this commander instead? Replace the Panzerfusilier-overshadowed MP40s or the controversial Tactical Movement with them?

Overwatch becomes a less overloaded commander, and Grand Offensive gets a unit that fits the theme in a commander which isn't jam packed with huge munition sinks?

That, and Smoke Plane/Goliath is a way to reliably use them against emplacements.

Double Panzerschreck Panzerfusiliers badly lose to Rear Echelons.
https://youtu.be/TpKHjls00zQ?t=1100

OOF