Reduce the cost of tier 4

my proposal is to even out the teching cost for OST and SOV... if you think that this is a bad idea then explain appropriately

The game must be assymetric in order to have some challenge. Otherwise you are just playing AOE2 with some fancy graphics and machine guns.
Get the idea, if you as russian are not putting pressure into your oponent, to halt or cripple their fuel supply, thats a mistake you and only you are making. There is no balance issue there, its the game design itself.

Ps. If you really want to talk about balance then start looking at those details, all of them, not just plain math (ie SU fuel vs OST fuel). Keep track of the things make factions strong/weak/fast

Soviet tech should be similar to Ostheer one, it allows you to decide if you want or not units from a certain structure but it allows you to skip them going trough all the tiers.

The game must be assymetric in order to have some challenge. Otherwise you are just playing AOE2 with some fancy graphics and machine guns.
Get the idea, if you as russian are not putting pressure into your oponent, to halt or cripple their fuel supply, thats a mistake you and only you are making. There is no balance issue there, its the game design itself.

Ps. If you really want to talk about balance then start looking at those details, all of them, not just plain math (ie SU fuel vs OST fuel). Keep track of the things make factions strong/weak/fast

this is a much better argument than matrix put up really... yes i agree that SOV T1 should be an aggressive faction and prevent the opponent from holding/keeping their fuel supply...

but my main prob here is not T1... my main problem is the more defensive oriented SOV T2 build... you see although T1 can actually pressure ost enough to delay the P4 to the point where the T-34 comes significantly earlier... (around a minute or longer) this simply isnt true for a SOV T2 build since
1. its a less aggressive and more defensive build overall unless PPSHcons are involved
2. its a more fuel intensive pathway... it actually takes more fuel to go thru T2 towards the T-34...

maybe the real problem here is with T2... but a cheaper T4 would help greatly aswell

but my main prob here is not T1... my main problem is the more defensive oriented SOV T2 build... you see although T1 can actually pressure ost enough to delay the P4 to the point where the T-34 comes significantly earlier... (around a minute or longer) this simply isnt true for a SOV T2 build since
1. its a less aggressive and more defensive build overall unless PPSHcons are involved
2. its a more fuel intensive pathway... it actually takes more fuel to go thru T2 towards the T-34...

We both agree totally here. Maybe lowering CP por shock troops or guardians can help keep the aggressive aspect of SU. I have tested and im certain that suiciding (is that a word?) squads gives you XP (rly), maybe a new strat that makes you "sacrifice" a conscript squad or two in order to get even faster a guardian rifle squad, or distracting the oponent can be a thing. I might just be terribly wrong.
Anyways SU is not in a bad spot as everyone here is saying. T4 is too far away to tweak it.
As i mentioned before, if you lower T4, then T34 should be somewhat nerfed, otherwise SU just will stomp every game unless they fu*k up real bad (ie. hitting a Teller mine)

We both agree totally here. Maybe lowering CP por shock troops or guardians can help keep the aggressive aspect of SU. I have tested and im certain that suiciding (is that a word?) squads gives you XP (rly), maybe a new strat that makes you "sacrifice" a conscript squad or two in order to get even faster a guardian rifle squad, or distracting the oponent can be a thing. I might just be terribly wrong.
Anyways SU is not in a bad spot as everyone here is saying. T4 is too far away to tweak it.
As i mentioned before, if you lower T4, then T34 should be somewhat nerfed, otherwise SU just will stomp every game unless they fu*k up real bad (ie. hitting a Teller mine)

Hmmm id say if we want t2 to be viable its the cons and maxim that needs a good look at over guards or shocks...

But yes i see your point... t4 buffs would actually break t1 gameplay and make it OP... point taken... its t2 that needs fixing

Soviet tech should be similar to Ostheer one, it allows you to decide if you want or not units from a certain structure but it allows you to skip them going trough all the tiers.

Ostheer call in units should be like Soviet Guards and T-34/85 , strong, cost effective, available and superior to stock units.

Why is my neighbor's grass greener than mine?

We both agree totally here. Maybe lowering CP por shock troops or guardians can help keep the aggressive aspect of SU...

Guards and Shock troops where move one CP down and proved to be OP like hell.

Ostheer call in units should be like Soviet Guards and T-34/85 , strong, cost effective, available and superior to stock units.

Why is my neighbor's grass greener than mine?

Should Ostheer stock units be like soviet conscripts and regular T34 too?
Weak, unreliable(not T34, unless in tank combat), not scaling unless you pick specific doctrine(not T34 case), inferior even to equally expensive stock unit, ineffective unless in groups or fighting threats well below them?

Should Ostheer stock units be like soviet conscripts and regular T34 too?
Weak, unreliable(not T34, unless in tank combat), not scaling unless you pick specific doctrine(not T34 case), inferior even to equally expensive stock unit, ineffective unless in groups or fighting threats well below them?

Since you seem to have missed my point let me explain once more. Each faction has its own design and its own weakness and strengths. Looking at one factions strength and claiming that another faction should get the exact same strengths simply does not work.

This was proven with the USF mortar (and Penals) on release when it become apparent that cloning a unit and moving to another faction can result to broken unit.

Should Ostheer stock units be like soviet conscripts and regular T34 too?
Weak, unreliable(not T34, unless in tank combat), not scaling unless you pick specific doctrine(not T34 case), inferior even to equally expensive stock unit, ineffective unless in groups or fighting threats well below them?

someone didnt understand the cons!

it isnt a classcanon like grens. they are t0 with:
- 6models a 80 healt = 50% mehr life than grens
- can sprint
- can merge
- can trow AT nades and molotows (deny cover/ bring mg our of houses...try this with grens)
- can build sandbags
- can lay mines..

what do you expect more? that they deal dmg like grens? WTF?
let them take a stolen lmg and they get horrible strong ..more at vet3

someone didnt understand the cons!

it isnt a classcanon like grens. they are t0 with:
- 6models a 80 healt = 50% mehr life than grens
- can sprint
- can merge
- can trow AT nades and molotows (deny cover/ bring mg our of houses...try this with grens)
- can build sandbags
- can lay mines..

what do you expect more? that they deal dmg like grens? WTF?
let them take a stolen lmg and they get horrible strong ..more at vet3

Hahahahah you think cons even compare to grens?
Grens have better RA
Grens get better damage
Grens get better accuracy
Grens bleed alot less
Grens get a non doctrinal weapon upgrade
Grens can build a bunker
Grens get the best grenade ingame (riflenade)

Conscript utility doesnt even come close to grens outright power... why do u see alot of t1 builds opt to skip out cons? Theyre as good as a tickle

Since you seem to have missed my point let me explain once more. Each faction has its own design and its own weakness and strengths. Looking at one factions strength and claiming that another faction should get the exact same strengths simply does not work.

This was proven with the USF mortar (and Penals) on release when it become apparent that cloning a unit and moving to another faction can result to broken unit.

Making a faction rely on doctrinal cheese is bad design... t1 at least can live without it... but t2 just dies because conscripts are useless without the ppsh

someone didnt understand the cons!

it isnt a classcanon like grens. they are t0 with:
- 6models a 80 healt = 50% mehr life than grens
- can sprint
- can merge
- can trow AT nades and molotows (deny cover/ bring mg our of houses...try this with grens)
- can build sandbags
- can lay mines..

what do you expect more? that they deal dmg like grens? WTF?
let them take a stolen lmg and they get horrible strong ..more at vet3

Not like grens get free fausts and scale much much much better with LMG. Not to forget oh-so-balanced free Rifle nades.
SO what does Cons have again without paying for expensive tech with fuel reqs or speccing into a commander with PPSH locking you out of other options.

Molotovs hardly ever force a mg out of buildings if its a bit bigger one aswell

Since you seem to have missed my point let me explain once more. Each faction has its own design and its own weakness and strengths. Looking at one factions strength and claiming that another faction should get the exact same strengths simply does not work.

This was proven with the USF mortar (and Penals) on release when it become apparent that cloning a unit and moving to another faction can result to broken unit.

No more own and unique design, own and unique were cut from the factions now they are similar. Only small differences.

Not like grens get free fausts and scale much much much better with LMG. Not to forget oh-so-balanced free Rifle nades.
SO what does Cons have again without paying for expensive tech with fuel reqs or speccing into a commander with PPSH locking you out of other options.

Molotovs hardly ever force a mg out of buildings if its a bit bigger one aswell

Yeah! Lets lay down right here on the battlefield to aim models ...oh...where did comes this massive indirect fire from? ..i must move! oh shit! i cant shot while moving! so yeah..lets lay down...oh shit..lost 3 models..i must go back to base..
and btw: there are some so much good commanders with ppsh inside..even with other great option! and ppsh schredd grens with no problems.

Yeah! Lets lay down right here on the battlefield to aim models ...oh...where did comes this massive indirect fire from? ..i must move! oh shit! i cant shot while moving! so yeah..lets lay down...oh shit..lost 3 models..i must go back to base..
and btw: there are some so much good commanders with ppsh inside..even with other great option! and ppsh schredd grens with no problems.

There are good commanders with G43 making grens beasts in CQC and on the move.
Why aren't you using them to counter literally every single disadvantage you mentioned?

There are good commanders with G43 making grens beasts in CQC and on the move.
Why aren't you using them to counter literally every single disadvantage you mentioned?

Yeah..."beast" i dont know what is "beast" at g43 grens..they dont schredd fast. its a constant dmg yeah...but not "beast". Or ur "beast" must be very tiny and knuffelig

Making a faction rely on doctrinal cheese is bad design... t1 at least can live without it... but t2 just dies because conscripts are useless without the ppsh

And if one buffs soviet stock units one will have to tone down the doctrinal stuff. It is a simple as and what I actually said in my original post. The grass is not greener on the other side of fence.

One can not ask for a faction to get only the strong part of another faction without the its weakness.

When conscripts are concerned the grass IS greener and always have. Faction differences and all but when EVERY other mainline can pay munitions to scale cons automatically fall to the bottom of the food chain, one might counter with "but durability! Cons win in theory but lacking dps while also facing units that have the ability to greatly increase their own leave the durability argument meh at best. It's true cons have a Ludacris vet 3 durability, but until that point they are dead weight this is SEEN by then being bypassed at every possible chance. They don't offer great map control, it can be nearly matched by okws VASTLY superior volks (let alone a Kuble) but It does offer great bleed! Utility is what one might fall back on, cons have utility! They can build sandbags, and have a snare of and area denial grenade! All things the 10mp volks do... All bundled into their 250mp cost and in the case of the lava nade, they do it further and faster, not as an extra side tech that takes a units worth of mp off the field without getting you any closer to tanks. Well they can merge! True, granting models to the squad who are more likley to get hit due to the larger than average target size of cons. Useful for sure, but worth then Bing good at LITERALLY nothing else? Idk about that... they have sprint too, like most other sprints except with an audio cue that it's happening and Iirc is more expensive than other on unit sprints too.
All other factions can also heal on field, making the larger target size of cons and large unit count account for even more lost field presence due to having to drop a volks squad worth of MP (again not getting you closer to tanks) for 3 medics locked in base who can't AOE heal.

The grass looks green on the other side of the sandbag wall because it is. Others can do everything they can do (in the case of volks especially...) but more effectively, more efficiently and more easily.
Add in their half assed support roster of literally the worst unit in the game combat engineers, the worst MG in the game Maxim (anybody else remember how having a suppression platform was so important that okw had one moved out of doctrines to be always availible nomatter how they tech up? The Maxim didn't get that memo being both trash at suppression AND skippable, one of 2 mgs in the game like that... Only the other is terrifyingly good...) and you have a unit designed to suxk