Very few cost effective counters to upgraded Grens

I wish nullist actually played the game. Speaking in pure statistics doesn't account for the randomness of the game.

So what's a good solution to penals? Reduce cost to 280?

An excellent solution for penals would be to increase their armor to 1.5, so they can be more durable in the field.

I wish nullist actually played the game. Speaking in pure statistics doesn't account for the randomness of the game.

So what's a good solution to penals? Reduce cost to 280?

340/300 would be a better idea, bear.

remember what happened last time elite infantry was 280?

ASSAULTGRENS COUGH COUGH

But it's a unit from a building, A "tier" building so the cost would be a little justified?? Ok maybe 300 mp.

P.s never thought Assgrens were op, they were risk/reward. If sov went fast tier 1 you were in trouble. But let's not get to off topic.

If DPS was all that mattered and squad member death timing didn't, snipers would be useless for both sides.

But, I digress.

Since this is a topic about finding an effective counter to upgraded (and vetted) grens, the solution might not lie with penal troops at all.

I still don't like that PTs are too effective at a role that isn't what they're described to be, and are too costly and buggy to use for their intended role.

Unfortunately, guards fill a role close to what's needed, although they're more light AT than anti infantry. They're also commander locked.

Maxim is effective, but prone to grenades. While it has the maneuverability to move with infantry, it's not something to rely on.

Perhaps a per unit upgrade path for conscripts that isn't just a weapon upgrade, but one that turns the squad into an upgraded conscript squad called Udarny or Strelkovy. There would be a significant cost, and maybe a vet requirement.

Then penal troops could drop the elite infantry act and become the do or die crazy assault unit they are described as.

An excellent solution for penals would be to increase their armor to 1.5, so they can be more durable in the field.

i think this is a good idea. then they have the armor to actually get in close with their flamer. i mean it doesnt make sense that they have flamers to begin with considering they get pinned or die before they get close. i play germans almost exclusively and scout cars with snipers can screw you over but t1 kinda doesnt make sense in that they have no way to hold ground other than spamming cons and thats just dumb and doenst work.

I wish nullist actually played the game. Speaking in pure statistics doesn't account for the randomness of the game.

Whats your ladder page?

You presume to condescend to me as if you are somekind of pro.
Show your stats so we can see how much and how well you play the game then.

Ontopic:

Penals are where, from a design perspective, the non-doctrinal infantry based 1.5 tier AI should be coming from.

Look up tristan45587 and you will see. Relax my man you seem to have missed other posts where I have applauded your coh2 knowledge. However I never realized you didn't play the game much, which is essential when including yourself in balance discussions. As a matter of fact it looks like you haven't played in 2 patches, because your stats haven't changed in some time.

How on earth am I potraying myself as some sort of pro?? Far from it. I was in top 100 German until last night before I was schooled by some pros lol

As a (mostly) soviet player this is sort of strange to say. I used to think the LMG42 was the biggest balance issue in the game, but when they nerfed the HMG42 the early game changed a lot. Nerfing the LMG42 as well hurts German t1 even more. The game changed a lot now and many German players are complaining about conscript spam.

I sort of think the LMG42 has its place. It's not free, and allows the Germans another way to counter conscripts. It is also useless when firing on the move and has a small setup time. In truth though I do think it's a little overpowered. Perhaps give it a higher munitions cost or a small damage reduction. I like the idea of a higher munitions cost personally.

I don't know how to embed a YouTube-link, beginning at a certain time within the video, so you'll have to do with this link to a cast.

It very clearly demonstrates the ridiculousness of LMGs.

I love the LMG, I think it is iconic of WWII and should be a central upgrade, but it needs a tweak. Perhaps make it fall under the same mechanics as Osttruppen, where they are only really effective in cover. Dunno.

An excellent solution for penals would be to increase their armor to 1.5, so they can be more durable in the field.

I also like that idea. However I think the reinforcement costs should be adjusted then, maybe from 30 to 35-40 per man.

An excellent solution for penals would be to increase their armor to 1.5, so they can be more durable in the field.

Then it would be a 6man 1.5 armor unit with >G43 DPS.

The way to fix penals imo is to give the flamethrower for free and give them an extra 5 hp / model

Also an upgrade where two svts or a dp lmg would be distributed to a cons squad after paying 40 munis at vet 1 would be a good way to make cons a bit more useful as far as combat is concerned without having any gamebreqaking effect. Furthermore it should disable the merge ability as compensation

Then it would be a 6man 1.5 armor unit with >G43 DPS.

But not with the same accuracy

Penal
Accuracy far:
0.26
Accuracy near:
0.47

G43
Accuracy far:
0.47
Accuracy near:
0.6

Still would prefer a cost reduction and shorter build time over armor buff.

The way to fix penals imo is to give the flamethrower for free and give them an extra 5 hp / model

trolling ?

But not with the same accuracy

Thats why there are 6 rifles.
More rifles=More shots fired=More rolls to hit= Dont need as high accuracy.
If it was 6 SVTs with G43 accuracy it would be completely and utterly OP.

See?

Thats why there are 6 rifles.
More rifles=More shots fired=More rolls to hit= Dont need as high accuracy.
If it was 6 SVTs with G43 accuracy it would be completely and utterly OP.

See?

ya but Germans with g43's are hitting units with 1 armor soviets are hitting units with 1.5 further decreasing the accuracy. Meaning that Germans pen on every hit. Penals at best hit every 47% of the time and then that only pens 66% of that.

You can't just port over dps and compare the two because that is if everyone's hit, hits and pens which it doesn't.

ya but Germans with g43's are hitting units with 1 armor soviets are hitting units with 1.5 further decreasing the accuracy.

Which is fine, because they have 6 rifles delivering more shots with higher DPS.
The accuracy and armor is compensated for by that.

Meaning that Germans pen on every hit. Penals at best hit every 47% of the time and then that only pens 66% of that.

Which is fine, because the enemy unit only has 4 models and the same hp pool on penetrations. More shots, more rolls to hit, more penetrations, and more DPS per penetration on a smaller unit.

There is nothing unusual here, or anything that disadvantages the Penals.

You can't just port over dps and compare the two because that is if everyone's hit, hits and pens which it doesn't.

Thats what you are doing though. Strange that you can't seem to grasp that.
Penals and G43 Grens are at rough equivalency.
Penals with more rifles and higher DPS with worse accuracy vs smaller hp pool but with armor.
G43s with less rifles, lower DPS with better accuracy vs higher hp pool but with less armor.

I'm not the one porting anything over. It is infact, you, who are, without considering what you are actually dealing with here.

Oh boy, this is all mixed up and I think the way Nullist explains it doesn't really help (although correct) in this case but could rather complicates things more... I hope this will make it a bit clearer so where do we start?

"more armor -> even less hits"
Attacks against grenadiers have a 66% chance to penetrate. This means that a Grenadier can take on average 50% more damage than a Penal soldier. However, the Penal squad does have 6 instead of 4 men. It really is easiest not to break your head about its influence on accuracy. Just calculate it into effective health.
This means that both squads have an effective health of 480 hitpoints (= 4*80*1.5 = 6*80).

"DPS and lower accuracy"
Normally, when calculating DPS, the accuracy is already calculated into the DPS number. Take the DPS spreadsheet for example.
This shows DPS of:
Penal SVT: 5.779 near; 1.492 far
Grenadier G43: 8.203 near; 3.477 far
Grenadier Kar 98K: 3.775 near; 1.029 far

Notice how the far DPS is much lower than the near DPS. This is because the accuracy decreases with increasing distance from the target. The accuracy is already calculated into DPS.

I think this is where Con's train of thought is going completely wrong. DPS means Damage Per Second. This means stuff like accuracy, firing speed etc. are already accounted for.

Remember that these values are averages and simplified. Randomness can work both ways, which heavily influences the subjective impact of both.
Other factors like dying squad members and handing over of G43s also play into this but are hard to account for (just as the spread of fire across a squad).

Oh boy, this is all mixed up and I think the way Nullist explains it doesn't really help (although correct) in this case but could rather complicates things more... I hope this will make it a bit clearer so where do we start?

"more armor -> even less hits"
Attacks against grenadiers have a 66% chance to penetrate. This means that a Grenadier can take on average 50% more damage than a Penal soldier. However, the Penal squad does have 6 instead of 4 men. It really is easiest not to break your head about its influence on accuracy. Just calculate it into effective health.
This means that both squads have an effective health of 480 hitpoints (= 4*80*1.5 = 6*80).

"DPS and lower accuracy"
Normally, when calculating DPS, the accuracy is already calculated into the DPS number. Take the DPS spreadsheet for example.
This shows DPS of:
Penal SVT: 5.779 near; 1.492 far
Grenadier G43: 8.203 near; 3.477 far
Grenadier Kar 98K: 3.775 near; 1.029 far

Notice how the far DPS is much lower than the near DPS. This is because the accuracy decreases with increasing distance from the target. The accuracy is already calculated into DPS.

I think this is where Con's train of thought is going completely wrong. DPS means Damage Per Second. This means stuff like accuracy, firing speed etc. are already accounted for.

Remember that these values are averages and simplified. Randomness can work both ways, which heavily influences the subjective impact of both.
Other factors like dying squad members and handing over of G43s also play into this but are hard to account for (just as the spread of fire across a squad).

ok but this clearly shows that penals are not like g43's so ya. And at the end of the day even if the units are equal that doesn't matter becuase grens cost 240 penals cost 360 gresn some out of a building that costs 80 mp 10 fuel and takes like 20 seconds to build whereas penals come out of a building that cost 200 mp 40 fuel and takes like 50 seconds to build. Penals take 50 seconds to build grens take 20-30 seconds (not a 100% sure on gren build time) and are currently not worth the time investment for equal to slightly better unit.

And since this is a topic about lmgs on grens 17.098 near 6.186 far dps penals don't compete with that