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Very few cost effective counters to upgraded Grens

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20 Sep 2013, 18:16 PM
#101
avatar of Basilone

Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2013, 06:59 AMlink0
I find that Grens with LMGs handily beat Shocks for cost over the long term in a war of attrition. Shocks cost almost as much as 2 Grens. Sure 2 sets of LMG42s are very expensive, but it's a one time fee in contrast to the constant man power drain of reinforcements.

HMG42s were overnerfed. If they buff HMG42s back a bit, then lmg42s may be toned down. Pretty much every top German player now is going pure Gren spam now.

+1

link0 knows what he is talking about, can't say the same for some people

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, Germans are already a munition starved faction, if your opponent is going fast mg-42s you should be happy, just avoid that one squad unless you can hit it in force, take his cut-offs and camp buildings like there is no tomorrow. Then laugh as your t-34s come and shit all over his grens.

That is true on some maps if your cutoff has a building next to it. But if you just let him sit on your cutoff then you will be really far behind in the teching war. And you can't just play a slow paced backtech for "combined arms" approach like you could do in vcoh because you will get owned by 5-6 minute FHT/AC
21 Sep 2013, 02:38 AM
#102
avatar of pewpewforyou

Posts: 101

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2013, 06:59 AMlink0
I find that Grens with LMGs handily beat Shocks for cost over the long term in a war of attrition. Shocks cost almost as much as 2 Grens. Sure 2 sets of LMG42s are very expensive, but it's a one time fee in contrast to the constant man power drain of reinforcements.

HMG42s were overnerfed. If they buff HMG42s back a bit, then lmg42s may be toned down. Pretty much every top German player now is going pure Gren spam now.


Yeah, this. MG42 needs its suppression bumped up. It was fun at first because it was a pretty big cheese unit before, but I think the nerf took it too far in the other direction with the suppression. The unit isn't worth the cost now. Then they can work on LMGs.
21 Sep 2013, 03:28 AM
#103
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2013, 05:56 AMNullist
"useless" is not a term that should ever be used in balance discussion.

neither should getting personal.

neither a post that says "Is this really necessary?", when the irony is that your own post contributed even less to the topic, than the one you are addressing.


A post from you that contributed nothing would be a welcome relief from the constant stream of vitriol and inflamitory remarks in your writing. Also, my post had little to do with the relevant content of your post but rather it's childish and aggressive tone. That said, you are a hypocrite for claiming that one shouldn't get personal in a balance discussion and amazingly arrogant for thinking that your caps lock rant contributed anything greater than zero (read negative) to the discussion.

On topic, I think that the point blank dps of the lmg-42 could use a small nerf and the suppression of the hmg-42 at closer ranges a small increase.
26 Sep 2013, 15:01 PM
#105
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1617

Give Concripts a global or non-global non-doctrinal weapon upgrade, PPSs, Svt-40s or Dps but don't nerf the grenadiers
26 Sep 2013, 22:39 PM
#106
avatar of Spetznova

Posts: 29

Give Concripts a global or non-global non-doctrinal weapon upgrade, PPSs, Svt-40s or Dps but don't nerf the grenadiers


Really this would be the best solution, just like the BAR vCoH.

They wanted conscripts to be cheap, big, basically expendable squads that are good in cover. They eventually did made make such a unit at half the price, the Ostruppen, but ironically they gave them to the Germans. Conscripts are actually most similar to the US riflemen, but without the late-game DPS upgrade they sorely need.
27 Sep 2013, 06:54 AM
#107
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

Can we leave this topic already? I say conscripts are fine as they are right now. If anyone doesn't know how to deal with LMG Grenadiers than this is a L2P issue rather than balance problem.
28 Sep 2013, 11:23 AM
#108
avatar of ofield

Posts: 420

Penals rape Grens with lmg, just saying <.<
28 Sep 2013, 11:41 AM
#109
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Sep 2013, 11:23 AMofield
Penals rape Grens with lmg, just saying <.<


wtf?! Are you sure ?
28 Sep 2013, 16:09 PM
#110
avatar of Marcus2389
Developer Relic Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

With flamers they do pretty good, once they vet they definitely beat them. So if both the squads have vet2 or vet3 penals with flamers generally win ;)
28 Sep 2013, 18:54 PM
#111
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Sep 2013, 11:23 AMofield
Penals rape Grens with lmg, just saying <.<


1. No, they don't. The fight can go either way. It all depends on if the flamers get lucky crits. Without flamers, they get OWNED.
2. They cost 50% more. Which means they actually lose horribly for cost.
3. They come out from an expensive and slow to build T1 building. Meaning they come out very late. You give up total map control while building the T1 building.
1 Oct 2013, 09:25 AM
#112
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Sep 2013, 11:23 AMofield
Penals rape Grens with lmg, just saying <.<

No they don't :))
1 Oct 2013, 22:00 PM
#113
avatar of pewpewforyou

Posts: 101

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Sep 2013, 11:23 AMofield
Penals rape Grens with lmg, just saying <.<


This blew my mind so much that I have to jump on the bandwagon. No, they don't.
1 Oct 2013, 22:10 PM
#114
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 401

I'm interested to know in what situations Penals will win against Grens with LMGs.
2 Oct 2013, 00:26 AM
#115
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 928

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Sep 2013, 11:23 AMofield
Penals rape Grens with lmg, just saying <.<


Stolen ostwinds also rape Grens with lmg

Just saying <.<
2 Oct 2013, 04:15 AM
#116
avatar of JohanSchwarz

Posts: 409

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Sep 2013, 11:23 AMofield
Penals rape Grens with lmg, just saying <.<


Maybe if the grenadiers sat on a satchel charge, sure.

Otherwise, no.
2 Oct 2013, 06:50 AM
#117
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Penals=G43 Grens, in terms of DPS and survival.
2 Oct 2013, 07:40 AM
#118
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

Penals=G43 Grens, in terms of DPS and survival.

Nope
Penals have 6.393 as where Grenadiers have 8.640 damage...also,this is about Grenadiers with LMG 42 that have 26 damage(these stats are from near range and excluding reload)
2 Oct 2013, 08:19 AM
#119
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned

Nope
Penals have 6.393 as where Grenadiers have 8.640 damage...also,this is about Grenadiers with LMG 42 that have 26 damage(these stats are from near range and excluding reload)


You should use the reload figures. since reload is a significant part of every engagement, and a defining factor on actual DPS. Also, you seemingly neglected to realise that G43 Grens only have 2 (two) G43s, whereas the entire Penal unit is armed with SVTs.

Key: Near / Medium / Far
Penals: 34.674 / 21.816 / 8.952
G43: 23.956 / 16.484 / 9.012
LMG: 28.423 / 18.848 / 9.273

These are the combined DPS figures for the entire unit, including reload.

PS: I calculated this same comparison about a month ago, but its buried under other posts. I could swear that Penals and G43 Gren had very close stats back then, but now, according to these figures, Penals seem to be much better.

Source- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0
2 Oct 2013, 18:08 PM
#120
avatar of link0

Posts: 337



You should use the reload figures. since reload is a significant part of every engagement, and a defining factor on actual DPS. Also, you seemingly neglected to realise that G43 Grens only have 2 (two) G43s, whereas the entire Penal unit is armed with SVTs.

Key: Near / Medium / Far
Penals: 34.674 / 21.816 / 8.952
G43: 23.956 / 16.484 / 9.012
LMG: 28.423 / 18.848 / 9.273

These are the combined DPS figures for the entire unit, including reload.

PS: I calculated this same comparison about a month ago, but its buried under other posts. I could swear that Penals and G43 Gren had very close stats back then, but now, according to these figures, Penals seem to be much better.

Source- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0


Yes, Penals = Grens with G43s, comes out later in the game, and cost 50% more to reinforce and don't have AT nades or Orrah. Constant manpower drain crap.
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