I think the best hope for the M42 is to either make it both AT and AI, via being able to switch between AT rounds and canister shot, which would make it a very unique and interesting unit. Or to give it useful late game abilities so it can be used to support other AT units in the late game.
The issue with the latter is making sure it is balanced, so the abilities would have to be unlocked at vet 2 or 3 or perhaps when a certain tier building has been built.
They are clearly trying hard to make the M42 viable so I'm sure we'll see some interesting stuff in the next mod update.
Feedback for Commander Revamppatch
9 Sep 2018, 14:10 PM
#561
6 
Posts: 328
9 Sep 2018, 14:27 PM
#562
Posts: 573
just forget m-42 and replace it with something more useful ffs..
kv2?, is2?
That commander needs something for late game.
They are considering KV-2, but I think flame artillery is what going to get axed if they are going to do this, not m-42.
It's still worthless as heck but if they buff far pen to 100 and allow it to be garrisonable and make its cone of attack wider (which they are thinking of doing) it might actually become semi-useful in midgame, by just being pain in the ass for axis to deal with
9 Sep 2018, 14:27 PM
#563
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
U are paying 200 mp for an unit that can counter only 222s or flame hts, definitely not worth it. Just go PTRS penals or zis gun to do that.
It can also counter Puma, Luch, AAHT.
The unit is cost efficient.
Btw you are not going to build a FHQ that fast. If u do that u will be behind the enemy for sure.
Try to always think considering a balanced match.
You can built as soon as you have the fuel especially in teamgames
The problem with the unit is not that it not good at countering PzIV (By the time a PzIV hit the field you can have a zis or SU-76 easily. )but that it not really good vs light vehicles since it does not the accuracy of the 6 ponder or the rotation speed. If it becomes as good or better than 6 ponder in countering light the unit will be fine.
Vipper:Hitting the rear is achieved by taking advantage of camo.
----
And how did that worked for Puppchen for the last 4 years? Do you have any great replays where you managed to pull that off with much more mobile puppchen in the past that was easier to hide?
That is nothing more then a shallow theorycraft that couldn't be further from what you can do in actual game.....
This is not place for mr me to explain things to you or start another flamer war but since you asked. If use "hold fire" in your atg you can wait until the tank get past you and then open fire, alternatively you turn your cloaked ATGs to face perpendicular to the path of incoming vehicles instead to direction they are coming.
In the end of they if you actually have a specific suggestion for a changes to make ahead and make it, I am sure the moders will be happy to read them. It sure far more productive than trying to prove me wrong.
9 Sep 2018, 14:43 PM
#564
Posts: 50
It can also counter Puma, Luch, AAHT.
The unit is cost efficient.
4 shots to take down a flak HT and 5 for the luchs. Again, i'd rather use a zis gun that u will definitely need at some point anyway.
9 Sep 2018, 14:43 PM
#565
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I'm not asking for an explanation from you.
I'm pointing out how silly and unrealistic scenarios you produce in your mental gymnastics to excuse stuff you firmly believe in.
You are in open denial about weakest unit in game that can not engage anything past light vehicles while being relatively expensive, spam prohibitive and useless all the way past early game, yet you for whatever reason attempt to paint it as useful.
Not even ullumulu thinks this unit is strong and that says something.
If it had a cost of 2 pop cap and 80 mp, it would be fine with current performance.
Patch buffed version is worth something like 4 pop and 120-140mp.
And it costs 6 pop cap and 200mp.
There is absolutely not a singular reason to EVER get it over ZiS-3 or PTRS penals or any kind of Guards doctrine, where guards will out DPS it while providing AI damage and vehicle control as well.
You act like we want to make it mobile, stealthy PaK43.
Get a grip on reality and go play with the unit, then come back here and tell us how amazing it is with a replay.
I'm pointing out how silly and unrealistic scenarios you produce in your mental gymnastics to excuse stuff you firmly believe in.
You are in open denial about weakest unit in game that can not engage anything past light vehicles while being relatively expensive, spam prohibitive and useless all the way past early game, yet you for whatever reason attempt to paint it as useful.
Not even ullumulu thinks this unit is strong and that says something.
If it had a cost of 2 pop cap and 80 mp, it would be fine with current performance.
Patch buffed version is worth something like 4 pop and 120-140mp.
And it costs 6 pop cap and 200mp.
There is absolutely not a singular reason to EVER get it over ZiS-3 or PTRS penals or any kind of Guards doctrine, where guards will out DPS it while providing AI damage and vehicle control as well.
You act like we want to make it mobile, stealthy PaK43.
Get a grip on reality and go play with the unit, then come back here and tell us how amazing it is with a replay.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
9 Sep 2018, 15:18 PM
#566
Posts: 712
You act like we want to make it mobile, stealthy PaK43.
I would be 100% up for that
9 Sep 2018, 15:21 PM
#567
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
4 shots to take down a flak HT and 5 for the luchs. Again, i'd rather use a zis gun that u will definitely need at some point anyway.
Exactly my point the unit should be a better option than a zis vs light and not a zis substitute.
9 Sep 2018, 15:45 PM
#568
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Patch buffed version is worth something like 4 pop and 120-140mp.
So instead of all these crazy ideas about buffing the unit giving god knows how many other balance problems, why not just decrease its prize?
9 Sep 2018, 15:49 PM
#569
Posts: 1220
My suggestion is to make m42 65 range with current stats
9 Sep 2018, 15:50 PM
#570
Posts: 2742
Single M-42 will never be a threat to mediums even if it had 500 penetration, however 2 of them should be able to tackle it, because AT is the only thing the unit can do and 2 of them cost much, much more then single ZiS-3.
Then you have got to realize that a single ZiS-3 will never be a threat to a medium.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
9 Sep 2018, 16:19 PM
#571
Posts: 573
This so-called "AT" gun does not perform as it should for it's cost.
Considering ZiS is non-doctrinal and costs 320 MP and M-42 is doctrinal and sits at 200MP you should expect it to perform like slightly worse ZiS and yet it just doesnt
ZiS has far peneteration of 180, while M-42 has far pen of 60, meaning for a 2/3 cost of ZiS, it has performance of 1/3 of ZiS
To sum it up
1) This unit does perform according to its cost
2) This a doctrinal unit that is worse compared to ZiS and Penals which are non-doctrinal
3) Guards who are doctrinal do all the things this unit does but better and they are anti-infantry unit foremost
Can we all agree on this?
P.S. stuff like bazookas has far penetration of 110
Considering ZiS is non-doctrinal and costs 320 MP and M-42 is doctrinal and sits at 200MP you should expect it to perform like slightly worse ZiS and yet it just doesnt
ZiS has far peneteration of 180, while M-42 has far pen of 60, meaning for a 2/3 cost of ZiS, it has performance of 1/3 of ZiS
To sum it up
1) This unit does perform according to its cost
2) This a doctrinal unit that is worse compared to ZiS and Penals which are non-doctrinal
3) Guards who are doctrinal do all the things this unit does but better and they are anti-infantry unit foremost
Can we all agree on this?
P.S. stuff like bazookas has far penetration of 110
9 Sep 2018, 16:45 PM
#572
Posts: 2066
Since when does the m42 now all of a sudden has to be able to take on mediums and fight off Panzer IVs?
It is doctrinal, situational and meant for light at. That is it, done.
It is doctrinal, situational and meant for light at. That is it, done.
Kappa
9 Sep 2018, 16:48 PM
#573
Posts: 2066
You are in open denial about weakest unit in game that can not engage anything past light vehicles while being relatively expensive, spam prohibitive and useless all the way past early game, yet you for whatever reason attempt to paint it as useful.
If we change a few words, we can use it to describe the Ostheer Panther! Not even doctrinal!
Kappa
9 Sep 2018, 16:48 PM
#574
Posts: 573
Since when does the m42 now all of a sudden has to be able to take on mediums and fight off Panzer IVs?
It is doctrinal, situational and meant for light at. That is it, done.
Because there is no reason to build it, Soviets already have better doctrinal and non-doctrinal solutions compared to it and because it insanely underperforms for it's cost
9 Sep 2018, 16:49 PM
#575
Posts: 2066
Because there is no reason to build it, Soviets already have better doctrinal and non-doctrinal solutions compared to it and because it insanely underperforms for it's cost
So buff it slightly or reduce its cost? Why on earth make it into a zis3 clone that can take on medium armor?
Kappa
9 Sep 2018, 16:52 PM
#576
Posts: 573
Buffing it "slightly" implies it gets pen around 140(near) to 120(far) and then it's will merely become cost equal to ZiS, it will still have worse scaling and far less utility, which makes it worse than non-doc unit it shares role with
9 Sep 2018, 16:56 PM
#577
Posts: 173
FFS, you are trying to get M-42 together with Zis-3?
We cant compare them, like, at all. M-42 is the same cannon(little bigger and with shield) that on t70.
Does t70 pen PZ4s and stuff like Zis-3? No.
Does it has a special role? Yes.
We cant compare them, like, at all. M-42 is the same cannon(little bigger and with shield) that on t70.
Does t70 pen PZ4s and stuff like Zis-3? No.
Does it has a special role? Yes.
9 Sep 2018, 17:06 PM
#578
Posts: 573
It does not have any special role, destroying cars is something even PTRS can do, you dont need doctrinal AT gun to do the same thing for you when you can use Guards or ZiS for same role either
As for T-70 penning P4, thats a Vipper level of argument, T-70 is AI tank, M-42 is AT gun, if you dont know difference between unit roles you should play tutorial instead of posting here.
And dont bring up realism, T-34-85 IRL performance is basically same as Tiger, it clearly does not perform as such in game
As for T-70 penning P4, thats a Vipper level of argument, T-70 is AI tank, M-42 is AT gun, if you dont know difference between unit roles you should play tutorial instead of posting here.
And dont bring up realism, T-34-85 IRL performance is basically same as Tiger, it clearly does not perform as such in game
9 Sep 2018, 17:28 PM
#579
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
Just for record, I have not tested the Soviets (yet, not sure if will at all) but I have a suggestion for the M42, which is not really new but still, relevant I think in order to make it unique.
My idea is fairly simple, just make it a Soviet Raketenwerfer, I even attempted it myself (at least the garrison ability) and this is what I got:
It's basically bugged out but I think it worked fine in it's intended role, and was really fun.
Just my 2 cents on the matter, that's all.
P.S.
If any other modder wants to (looking at SnakeEye and Planet Smasher since I know they lurk around here) they can make their own attempt at it, see how it goes, for testing purposes, or science(?). I would at least appreciate it.
Cheers.
My idea is fairly simple, just make it a Soviet Raketenwerfer, I even attempted it myself (at least the garrison ability) and this is what I got:
It's basically bugged out but I think it worked fine in it's intended role, and was really fun.
Just my 2 cents on the matter, that's all.
P.S.
If any other modder wants to (looking at SnakeEye and Planet Smasher since I know they lurk around here) they can make their own attempt at it, see how it goes, for testing purposes, or science(?). I would at least appreciate it.
Cheers.
9 Sep 2018, 18:13 PM
#580
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Buffing it "slightly" implies it gets pen around 140(near) to 120(far) and then it's will merely become cost equal to ZiS, it will still have worse scaling and far less utility, which makes it worse than non-doc unit it shares role with
I suggest you debate the penetration buff ans how useful it would be with Katitof according to whom:
"Single M-42 will never be a threat to mediums even if it had 500 penetration, however 2 of them should be able to tackle it, because AT is the only thing the unit can do and 2 of them cost much, much more then single ZiS-3."
As for role zis and M42 does not share the same role. Zis is an antitank gun and M42 is a light antitank gun.
I would appreciated if you stopped the personal comments I really wouldn't like to have to respond on personal level. After all I am not sure why you feel offended, you provided you feedback on how to make M-42 a better unit and I provided mine.
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