Why would I build a Panther?

Hello,

this topic isn´t supposed to be a rant about balance etc. It´s simply an observation that I made in CoH2 - for myself and for my opponents. This observation applies to 2v2 matches.

Germans almost never ever field Panthers. If they do, they usually have already won the game. 80% of the German players go T3 for the Panzer IV. And why shouldn´t they? The Panzer IV is cheaper and almost as good as the Panther. Teching up to T4 delaying your armor doesn´t seem to be a viable option. By the time a Panther comes out you could have fielded 2 Panzer IVs.


So what exactly does the Panther have over the Panzer IV?

Better frontal armour, better HP, better gun, slightly more speed.

BUT that comes for a tradeoff: Worse anti infantry capabilities, 50 fuel and 120MP higher costs, teching costs, longer time to vet up.


Further this gap between Panzer IV and Panther is further narrowed by several things:

- The Panzer IV vets up rather quickly and a vet2 Panzer IV seems to be a much bigger threat than a Panther.

- Blitzkrieg pretty much negates the speed advantage the Panther has over the Panzer IV (at least both are fast enough).

- Both can get owned by Su-85s anyway. Both defeat heavy tanks without that much trouble.


My conclusion:

My conclusion is that the Panther is outshined by the Panzer IV. I don´t see a reason to build it. I´m not crying for a nerf or buff to any unit, but I think the Panther really doesn´t offer that much better anti tank capabilities as the "generalist" Panzer IV.

Your thoughts?

An SU85 doesnt own a properly microed Panther in my experience. I do agree that the Panther isn't nearly as great an investment as the Panzer IV, but that isn't just because the Panther is not good enough, it's also because the Panzer IV might be just a little bit too good (although absolutely not game breaking).

I think we should just wait. Last patch was about the T34 which really needed an update, maybe some more tweaking will be done about T3 but when that's done we'll very likely see changes for the end-game tanks. It's not just the Panther that needs changes really, the IS-2 as of now is just a piece of shit for what it costs for instance. They just can't balance those tanks before the early/mid game is balanced.

Yeah, I mean. I'd take a Panther over a PIV any day. I've recently been changing my BO to accomodate them and have had a few games where I've managed to build 2 (+1 Tiger once) and found that they were rendered somewhat redundant because of a defensive line of SU-85s backed up by snipers.

I'm not ranting, and like CptEend said there's still plenty of balancing to do. But I will be very happy when the balance can evolve out of this Su-85 defensive play that you see quite often and move on to a more fluid late game. It almost makes me not want to not play Soviet because most of the time it has to be done.

I agree with the OP.

The advantages gained by teching to t4 are negligible compared to the investment (an investment so crippling you rarely see German T4 in 1v1s).

I am not complaining.
Its just that P4s seem to be the more sensible option.
Here is why:


In 1v1s and 2v2s there is hardly any change in the 'pace' of the game itself usually associated with teching and thus the arrival of new units .

Allowing for equally skilled opponents:
The German player(s) invested heavily and gained access to specialized and more expensive tanks (well just panthers, brumbar is not feasible currently) - good for him/her/them.
As competent Soviet commander's SU-85s will have already hit the field or are at least being teched/built - the Soviet play style will not change that much.
(Well, possibly by building an additional SU-85 or two which might have been a smart move anyway.)


The Panzerwefer is the only truly unique/new unit gained by reaching T4.
In general terms:
Panthers, (Brumbar)? - nice to have but late and expensive arrivals.


I do not want to complain about unit costs or even stats - just like the OP I do not see the point of investing and waiting for panthers when playing OH.
For me the P4 is just the more sensible option.

ive played quite a bit with panthers and in my opinion they eat up su-85s for breakfast if micro'd well...they are quite nippy and frontal armour is decent in a 1v1 arena yes they are super costly and put ur mid game at risk if ur saving up but if u manage to look after him and u havent allowed ur team mate to build up an su85 army u will be able to handle all armoured threats.
but for the same fuel cost u could get a tiger or an elephant...actually i think its cheaper to get a tiger or elephant so yeah i never tech t4 in 1v1

I agree in terms. The problem is the current state of the SU-85. However, once you got a Tiger or Elephant, you can complement it with Panthers and try to make a push on the SUs. This, of course, only works on late game team games.

I guess that when the SU-85 gets a well deserved nerf in the next patch, we will see Panther usability increase.

Thx for the answers. One thing I forgot. Panzer IV and Panther are almost identical in their guns´ performances. As both do 160 damage and only differ in penetration. Panzer IV will almost always penetrate Su85s or T-34s anyway so there´s no real damage output increase. Not sure about the reload times though.

a panther is a better tank destroyer there's no doubt about that. a panther will make mince meat out of t34...the only only thing a t34 can do to a panther is ram

An SU85 doesnt own a properly microed Panther in my experience.

A properly microed PIV kills an SU tho

A properly microed PIV kills an SU tho

the one problem with trying a quick flank with a p4 or panther is there will be cons near by with AT nade and then ur dead...p4 is especially vunerable as at close range the panther could still take an su85 out head to head but a damaged p4 is dead vs su85

I like panthers a lot. They are certainly expensive, but they are worth it if you can spare the time and resources to get them. The critical element is whether you need a tank asap, or if you can wait. If a 1v1 or 2v2 game is evenly matched, and no one side is controlling the map, you usually need to get a tank out ASAP. In which case I go for a P4. On the other hand, if I have had a very effective early/mid game and harassed my opponents fuel and cut offs, then I sometimes gamble and go for T4 and get a panther.

Soviets have the option of going straight for T4, it's different, but not necessarily better. The SU-85 is powerful, but a well managed combine arms army can handle it.

The bottom line for me in 1v1 and 2v2 is that most matches don't last long enough for T4 and panthers to be what I need.

In my EXP with them Panthers are the bane of my Soviet life.

That being said I would still make P4s over Panthers even if I had the resources for one.

Your concern about t4 as a whole not being worth it might be right since the panther is the most useful unit you get out of it. You also prettymuch have to go t2 if you are skipping t3 which is not so bad.

I think panthers are in a pretty good spot though. In most cases they wreck t34s and anything T3. They even can take on soviet heavy armor at the moment. Their speed and armor combined make it a very survivable unit that can collect veterancy and get that much better. They are an excellent late game unit.

Bottom line if your opponent goes t3 consider getting panthers.

the only only thing a t34 can do to a panther is ram

I've had a panther deflect a ram. It definitely gave a temporary crit (crew shock, I think). It might have damaged the engine, I don't remember exactly, but it definitely didn't damage the gun.

...so there's a reason to go panthers. They have much more survivability against both conscript AT grenades and T3.

Worth noting: if you don't build T3 a Panther costs (after building T2) 1000 manpower and 280 fuel, when you include the necessary teching and buildings. PIV costs (after building T2) 680 manpower and 175 fuel, when you count the cost of teching and building T3. Adding a second PIV raises the total cost to 1000 manpower, 290 fuel, which is almost the same as a single panther.

ok so if reds go t3 building panzer 4's might not cut it, so rather call in heavy tanks or panthers...i dnt genrally find paks to be too great vs red t3 the t34 are too quick...but what ive been doing allot lately is teller mines covered by pak or a quick faust on t34....once they have engine damage ur pak should be on it.

Yeah, Holding out for a panther is quite hard, you can do it with clever tellers and paks/schreks but its hard. spending the 1000mp and 280 fuel is quite a lot and i would usually prefer saving up for an elefant, backed by t3 p4/stug/ostwind. Maybe if brummbar wasnt so shit it would be worth it to skip t3, but currently i would rather have two p4's or T2 + a single elefant in stead of a panther.

If you go t2 and wait for elefant its actually cheaper than teching and building a single panther.