Why would I build a Panther?
Posts: 978
this topic isn´t supposed to be a rant about balance etc. It´s simply an observation that I made in CoH2 - for myself and for my opponents. This observation applies to 2v2 matches.
Germans almost never ever field Panthers. If they do, they usually have already won the game. 80% of the German players go T3 for the Panzer IV. And why shouldn´t they? The Panzer IV is cheaper and almost as good as the Panther. Teching up to T4 delaying your armor doesn´t seem to be a viable option. By the time a Panther comes out you could have fielded 2 Panzer IVs.
So what exactly does the Panther have over the Panzer IV?
Better frontal armour, better HP, better gun, slightly more speed.
BUT that comes for a tradeoff: Worse anti infantry capabilities, 50 fuel and 120MP higher costs, teching costs, longer time to vet up.
Further this gap between Panzer IV and Panther is further narrowed by several things:
- The Panzer IV vets up rather quickly and a vet2 Panzer IV seems to be a much bigger threat than a Panther.
- Blitzkrieg pretty much negates the speed advantage the Panther has over the Panzer IV (at least both are fast enough).
- Both can get owned by Su-85s anyway. Both defeat heavy tanks without that much trouble.
My conclusion:
My conclusion is that the Panther is outshined by the Panzer IV. I don´t see a reason to build it. I´m not crying for a nerf or buff to any unit, but I think the Panther really doesn´t offer that much better anti tank capabilities as the "generalist" Panzer IV.
Your thoughts?
Posts: 369
I think we should just wait. Last patch was about the T34 which really needed an update, maybe some more tweaking will be done about T3 but when that's done we'll very likely see changes for the end-game tanks. It's not just the Panther that needs changes really, the IS-2 as of now is just a piece of shit for what it costs for instance. They just can't balance those tanks before the early/mid game is balanced.
Posts: 505
I'm not ranting, and like CptEend said there's still plenty of balancing to do. But I will be very happy when the balance can evolve out of this Su-85 defensive play that you see quite often and move on to a more fluid late game. It almost makes me not want to not play Soviet because most of the time it has to be done.
Posts: 101
The advantages gained by teching to t4 are negligible compared to the investment (an investment so crippling you rarely see German T4 in 1v1s).
I am not complaining.
Its just that P4s seem to be the more sensible option.
Here is why:
In 1v1s and 2v2s there is hardly any change in the 'pace' of the game itself usually associated with teching and thus the arrival of new units .
Allowing for equally skilled opponents:
The German player(s) invested heavily and gained access to specialized and more expensive tanks (well just panthers, brumbar is not feasible currently) - good for him/her/them.
As competent Soviet commander's SU-85s will have already hit the field or are at least being teched/built - the Soviet play style will not change that much.
(Well, possibly by building an additional SU-85 or two which might have been a smart move anyway.)
The Panzerwefer is the only truly unique/new unit gained by reaching T4.
In general terms:
Panthers, (Brumbar)? - nice to have but late and expensive arrivals.
I do not want to complain about unit costs or even stats - just like the OP I do not see the point of investing and waiting for panthers when playing OH.
For me the P4 is just the more sensible option.
Posts: 94
but for the same fuel cost u could get a tiger or an elephant...actually i think its cheaper to get a tiger or elephant so yeah i never tech t4 in 1v1
Posts: 42
I guess that when the SU-85 gets a well deserved nerf in the next patch, we will see Panther usability increase.
Posts: 978
Posts: 94
Posts: 786
An SU85 doesnt own a properly microed Panther in my experience.
A properly microed PIV kills an SU tho
Posts: 94
A properly microed PIV kills an SU tho
the one problem with trying a quick flank with a p4 or panther is there will be cons near by with AT nade and then ur dead...p4 is especially vunerable as at close range the panther could still take an su85 out head to head but a damaged p4 is dead vs su85
Posts: 889 | Subs: 1
Soviets have the option of going straight for T4, it's different, but not necessarily better. The SU-85 is powerful, but a well managed combine arms army can handle it.
The bottom line for me in 1v1 and 2v2 is that most matches don't last long enough for T4 and panthers to be what I need.
Posts: 5
That being said I would still make P4s over Panthers even if I had the resources for one.
Posts: 135
I think panthers are in a pretty good spot though. In most cases they wreck t34s and anything T3. They even can take on soviet heavy armor at the moment. Their speed and armor combined make it a very survivable unit that can collect veterancy and get that much better. They are an excellent late game unit.
Bottom line if your opponent goes t3 consider getting panthers.
Posts: 2838 | Subs: 3
the only only thing a t34 can do to a panther is ram
I've had a panther deflect a ram. It definitely gave a temporary crit (crew shock, I think). It might have damaged the engine, I don't remember exactly, but it definitely didn't damage the gun.
...so there's a reason to go panthers. They have much more survivability against both conscript AT grenades and T3.
Worth noting: if you don't build T3 a Panther costs (after building T2) 1000 manpower and 280 fuel, when you include the necessary teching and buildings. PIV costs (after building T2) 680 manpower and 175 fuel, when you count the cost of teching and building T3. Adding a second PIV raises the total cost to 1000 manpower, 290 fuel, which is almost the same as a single panther.
Posts: 94
Posts: 255
If you go t2 and wait for elefant its actually cheaper than teching and building a single panther.
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