Give me a reason why KV8 is OP?

Its just about useless in 3v3 and 4v4 (since 1 or 2 German players tech straight from t1 to t4, more often than not Piv will hit the ground before Kv8)

As mentioned earlier by Cruzz, balance discussion does not extend past 2v2. 3v3 and 4v4 is essentially impossible to balance due to the teching design of the two factions, IMO.

Um, I'm not sure being in a crap tree is necessarily a good reason for it to be OP, because then fixing anything else in the tree (like, say, making Shocks cost effective) will completely mess up the balance.

My issue is still, it's just that it's the sort of unit that can just end the game if it waltzes into an enemy base, as well as being very hard to actually kill if the opponent uses it more responsibly. For 360MP and 135 Fuel, that's way too good. I don't mind the infantry melting but the infantry melting, the armour and the cost together is way too good.

I think the best point of comparison is the Brummbar, which has worse armour and less HP, is less effective against infantry in a real scenario most of the time, requires a Tier 4 tech building (hence a bigger initial fuel and MP investment) and costs 35 fuel and 160 mp more.

I am talking about ATM, in 'what if' scenario I would agree with you.

Tho I agree that it is extremely frustrating seeing Kv8 hit the field, and even in the hands of noobish player it is extremely deadly for infantry, I can't recall an instance where it wiped out my entire squads unless i stood my ground and tried to fire of Pfaust. In most scenarios I would have 2x PG squads and possibly at gun and scout. Now I mostly stand my ground to KV8 and send PG squads to opposite flanks, The squad that KV8 tries to burn I retreat (usually losing 1-2, very rarely entire squad) second squad always fires of shrecks and retreats undamaged. At the same time i harass it with upgraded scouts and fire of at round if I have one. Before I pull out stug or Piv and kill it or nullify its danger. After that its walk in the park defeating Soviet player.

Do you actually lose to kv8 commander player? As far as I am aware, not many people do. Its bit of noobish unit like arty spamming, its annoying but mostly winnable.

P.S. If you haven't achieved almost full map control with t2 vs shocks and conscripts by the time KV8 hits the ground, then your opponent is much more skilled player or you messed up. No ground to blame KV8

Brumbar comes as call in for very well rounded German tier unlike Kv8 coming into Soviet tier that requires other call-in units to be effective against default German tier.
Eg. Kv8 means no guardsrifle meaning you must survive with semi-useless anti-armor shocks and Conscripts throughout German t2 scout spam and flame halftruck.....

It can be good without instantly erasing units. Someone gets vetted Grenadiers and PGrens but just because someone picked an otherwise weak doctrine it is acceptable for them instantly die? No. It could be buffed in other areas like acceleration and main gun but there is no justification for units consistently insta killing full squads unless its just a really lucky hit from artillery or grenades.

How often do you end up losing match to Kv8 player? 20%, 50%, 80%, 100% of the time?

Yes it is annoying and OP as single unit, but as part of the specific commander I dare to say its still weak commander, that loses more then 50% of time (on par with arty spamming, extremely annoying but entirely winnable vs)

My favorite game was when I managed to steal a KV-8 wreck and my opponent complained it was OP.

To be fair, I think the Soviets have a lot less to counter a KV-8 with than even the Germans do if you were to manage to steal one

@BabaRoga: The KV8 can just chase your pgrens to your base when they retreat and roast them as they run. If the player didn't try to do that then he doesn't know how to exploit KV8.

@BabaRoga: The KV8 can just chase your pgrens to your base when they retreat and roast them as they run. If the player didn't try to do that then he doesn't know how to exploit KV8.

I understand that, but do you have any other units but Pgreens? 1 at gun and couple of upgraded scouts will deter KV8 from doing so, especially if it took some damage already.

I am not saying these things aren't happening to you guys, just saying so far in my encounters with KV8, I always managed to dish out some damage to Kv8 with double Pg's and rarely losing entire squad let alone 2 vet 3 pgrens.

I had Kv8 come after me to base couple of times where it died, because my pgrens didn't just instantly disappear from flames. You can still hide behind buildings and hold it of until stug comes out.

Furthermore its not like Kv8 comes out way before German player can pull out stug to counter it...

Maybe I just played real noobs, I dont know.

Nerf it.

@BabaRoga: Are you saying the Russians don't have other units as well? By the way, AT Guns are no deterrant unless vetted since they get insta-BBQ'd as well and remember you can no longer suicide faust it with a grenadier from the front.

Even if the KV-8 dies as a result of charging into your base, if it is able to kill, hypothetically, one shrek squad and two LMG squads on its rampage towards your base, that's 840 manpower + 240 munitions down the drain right there. Generally speaking, it'll probably do even more damage than that if it's on a suicide run. I'd trade 360 manpower and 135 fuel for that anyday, because it means now the Germans have no infantry and I can capture a lot of the map. Unsupported German tanks are mincemeat for AT guns + conscript nades.

Frankly, the KV-8 is actually more OP on its own than the Su-85 because it takes away the ability to capture points, which is essential for victory.

By the way, you people have been saying that the KV-8 is the sole reason for those commanders. That implies Shock Troops must be useless. Why? Because the KV-8's overwhelming effectiveness renders them useless. Why would you ever pay 480 manpower for Shock Troops when the KV-8 fulfills all of your anti-infantry needs? So yes, I agree, the KV-8 is the "only" good thing about those commanders; doesn't mean it should be that way.

It is a little too cost efficient. Slight cost increase, and slight nerf to flames vs retreating. Especially since it requires no teching at all exept waiting for 4cps.

Brummbar is laugable in comparison. it costs 190 fuel(165 if you skip t3 building) just to tech to a brummbar, and another 170 fuel to build one. It also has worse stats overall.

Granted, a p4 will kill it eventually, but usually not before you lost a lot of map control and probably a couple of squads. The KV's real power is when used in combination with su85's.

@BabaRoga: Are you saying the Russians don't have other units as well? By the way, AT Guns are no deterrant unless vetted since they get insta-BBQ'd as well and remember you can no longer suicide faust it with a grenadier from the front.

Even if the KV-8 dies as a result of charging into your base, if it is able to kill, hypothetically, one shrek squad and two LMG squads on its rampage towards your base, that's 840 manpower + 240 munitions down the drain right there. Generally speaking, it'll probably do even more damage than that if it's on a suicide run. I'd trade 360 manpower and 135 fuel for that anyday, because it means now the Germans have no infantry and I can capture a lot of the map. Unsupported German tanks are mincemeat for AT guns + conscript nades.

Frankly, the KV-8 is actually more OP on its own than the Su-85 because it takes away the ability to capture points, which is essential for victory.

By the way, you people have been saying that the KV-8 is the sole reason for those commanders. That implies Shock Troops must be useless. Why? Because the KV-8's overwhelming effectiveness renders them useless. Why would you ever pay 480 manpower for Shock Troops when the KV-8 fulfills all of your anti-infantry needs? So yes, I agree, the KV-8 is the "only" good thing about those commanders; doesn't mean it should be that way.

What I am trying to say is this: Yes KV8 is extremely annoying and yes its OP'd when you look at it the way you described. But once you kill it, and you will with stug or piv, it really doesn't matter that you lost all your Pgrens worth 840 Mp and 240 ammo because having spent 135 Fuel to pull out kv8, Soviet player is some 200 fuel away from fielding Su85. Just keep rolling Piv's shocks are useless against armor, thats what is everyone saying. Soviet player is left defenseless against heavier armor unless he manages to defeat German player completely with Kv8...
As I said high risk / high gain unit.
No one is claiming that KV8 isnt OP'd, but we are saying as the part of commander tree it comes with, it is not OP'd because commander would be useless otherwise.....

It is a little too cost efficient. Slight cost increase, and slight nerf to flames vs retreating. Especially since it requires no teching at all exept waiting for 4cps.

Brummbar is laugable in comparison. it costs 190 fuel(165 if you skip t3 building) just to tech to a brummbar, and another 170 fuel to build one. It also has worse stats overall.

Granted, a p4 will kill it eventually, but usually not before you lost a lot of map control and probably a couple of squads. The KV's real power is when used in combination with su85's.

Kv8 costs 135 fuel, you cannot possibly have Kv8 and Su85 vs player of any decent ability (at the time when Kv8 can freely roam the map, and that is before stug or piv)

Its a cheese unit that unless it hits a mine and gets engine damaged straight in the field of fire of some supported ATG, the tank will take forever to kill.

Just rightclick with a PzIV on it and keep your infantry capping at the other side of the map. Problem solved.

I don't know why so many players try to defend the KV8 - it is blatantly clear that it is OP for its price.

It's only OP in 1 in 100 games when the german either lets the soviet sit on tent till minute 10, doesn't spam T2 or doesn't spam T3. Yeah, that never happens. Comparatively, the MG42 instapin is OP in every single game.
If you think the KV-8 is so great - which in its niche it is - try playing a game with it. And post your replays here. I am interested in this.

kv8 in some situations is one of the few soviet units that can force a mass retreat.
these are the german units that have the same effect:
mg42
scout car
flame ht
p4
ostwind

kv8 in some situations is one of the few soviet units that can force a mass retreat.
these are the german units that have the same effect:
mg42
scout car
flame ht
p4
ostwind

why would you actually retreat conscripts from a scout car? guards/at nades/30mun mines, conscripts shooting from cover. If the enemy makes multiple scout cars his fuel is so screwed your first tanks will rape his whole army

if you dont have your own t34s/su85s/zis by the time a p4 or ostwind comes out, you've probably been driven off the map since the start

mg42 and flamer halftrack (squishy, shorter ranged, and with weaker dps than a kv8, I should note) DO force the soviet player to react.

Snipers, fast t70s (but also t70s in general), kv8s, su85s, and so on force the german player to react specifically to those units.

The difference is a mg42 and flamer halftrack can be killed easily by tier1 units (molotovs, flanking, at nades, mines) while su85s and kv8s, even well micro'd snipers, are not so easy.

When MG42s and support teams rightfully get nerfed for flanking damage and probably suppression, what else will soviet players be really able to cry OP on then?

I'm not exactly original stating that the soviet army has space dominating synergy with multiple builds, like su85s + guards + snipers + scripts for screening that the german's cant match. A pro soviet player will use the discrepancy in building cover and t1 harassment to contain the ostheer on their high value resources defensively (or cut them off completely), which means itll be game over when the soviet player techs faster.

Kv8 costs 135 fuel, you cannot possibly have Kv8 and Su85 vs player of any decent ability (at the time when Kv8 can freely roam the map, and that is before stug or piv)

I know what it costs ffs. I was referring to late game, which often happens when both players are of similiar skill. Not everyone base rush suicides with it(and loses it to a mine+schreks+pak or w/e), it can be very deadly when used with support and to deny capping, thats what i was saying. (a base rush can also work against an under-prepared german player though).

If the russian rushes it, it can freely roam the map, (denying capping). He then keeps it alive while teching to su85. The german will get a counter out-p4/stug (not pak lol cos kv8 eats paks for breakfast). However, if the german doesnt manage to kill the kv8(due to soviet player not being a dumbass and not over-extending), it becomes even more deadly used in combination with the su85. It will also probably have killed a couple of schrek squads in the mean time, meaning that the german hasn't got an answer to the su85(which will eat his t3 tanks).

No-one can deny that it shouldn't be able to chase down two or three pgren squads on retreat and kill all of them.

It certainly isn't overwhelmingly OP, but it sure as hell needs a small nerf to flame damage(especially vs retreating) or a slight cost increase. Neither the crocodile nor the churchill was that powerful.

@BabaRoga, raw: For the last time, none of us are saying that the KV-8 is a 100% game-winner at the current juncture. It however will spiral out of control once the early game is adjusted back to a more fair state once MG42 and Armored Car is nerfed (which I'm all for, but I keep those posts in their own threads), allowing Soviets a better hold on their early fuel and other sectors.

Frankly, I'm sick of patches swinging the favor of games hugely towards one faction or the other and I think you share my sentiments. Therefore, it's important for Relic to know about some of these "hidden" timebombs as well so they're balanced in the same patch. You can't honestly believe it's alright for a unit to instantly kill a infantry squad fairly consistently upon sight when one of the key points of the game is to retain infantry squads.

Nerf it.

++1

Nerf its armor. I dont know what game the sovs play but its never easy to take down a kv8 with shreks and a p4. The shreks melt and the kv8 deflects a LOT of the p4 shots.

Nerf its armor. I dont know what game the sovs play but its never easy to take down a kv8 with shreks and a p4. The shreks melt and the kv8 deflects a LOT of the p4 shots.

lol.. its a heavy fucking tank? whats the purpose of nerfing its armor so it no longer acts as a heavy tank .. if anything they could nerf the damage of its flame, but dont touch its god damn armor._. its a heavy tank let it stay that way. personally i don't find it OP fuck me right? and im a ostheer player.. but whatever people are entitled to have they're own reasons and ideas

How often do you end up losing match to Kv8 player? 20%, 50%, 80%, 100% of the time?

Yes it is annoying and OP as single unit, but as part of the specific commander I dare to say its still weak commander, that loses more then 50% of time (on par with arty spamming, extremely annoying but entirely winnable vs)

I don't see many people using it that often but that isn't the point. Its been probably 2 months since I lost to someone that made Penal Battalions but the blast radius is a bit outrageous regardless.

Furthermore its not like Kv8 comes out way before German player can pull out stug to counter it...

Any other vehicle in the game, even an Ostwind you can delay long enough to get some emergency AT usually without losing any units. Any competent player that catches opponent off guard with a KV8 is going to kill half his units before he can field a counter.