Tips vs Snipers with SU85 (1v1)

Does anyone know if the Infantry Awareness ability that ACs and 251 HTs get at vet 1 detects snipers in cloak? I always forget that that ability exists, but it seems like it could be useful in these situations.

My suggestion is to go heavy on T1 and T2. Once you get a halftrack, be very aggressive at cutting off your opponent's fuel. Do not tech T3 or T4, and go straight for either Elefant or Tiger (I would suggest Elefant on maps with long, open sight-lines). Tech however you want after that. You might even want to use a reconnaissance flight over your the enemy base at about 10 minutes just to make sure your opponent hasn't gone T3 to get a fast T70.

EDIT: as someone else pointed out, rightly, getting to the CPs necessary to unlock the big, big tanks can be hard and you might end up getting barraged into the stone age by Katyushas before you can get one. If that happens sorry.

Also, to various people leaving comments about how such-and-such unit is broken/OP: this is the strategies forum. Please put those comments in the balance forum, and let's use this forum to try to figure out how best to play the game as it is at the moment, rather than how we would like it to be in the future.

Going straight for some sort of doctrinal big tank instead of T3/T4 might give you some extra resources to pour into infantry while making him "waste" his SU85s by not giving him targets.
So theoretically you'd have an infantry advantage to exploit perhaps?

It's sort of the same idea as T2 Terror in COH1 if you remember that strategy.

Going straight for some sort of doctrinal big tank instead of T3/T4 might give you some extra resources to pour into infantry while making him "waste" his SU85s by not giving him targets.
So theoretically you'd have an infantry advantage to exploit perhaps?

It's sort of the same idea as T2 Terror in COH1 if you remember that strategy.

Yup. Similar idea. The difference, fuel-wise, is not very large, however, so if you want to do this you need to protect your fuel just as aggressively as you would if you were teching.

Here's a breakdown of cost differences:

If you go T3 (which, imho, is suicide against SU-85s)...
Show Spoiler
...a PIV will cost you 680 MP, 175 fuel.

If you go T4...
Show Spoiler
...a panther ultimately costs 1000 MP, 280 fuel.

An Elefant is 640 manpower, 260 fuel
A Tiger is 600 manpower, 250 fuel

It's worth noting that both of these tanks have a good chance to deflect AT grenades (and pretty much everything else, including, as I learned the hard way, T-34 ram)

Mortar HT, btw, is 200 manpower, 40 fuel, and unlocks at 1 CP. I find it very useful; just watch out for Guards in M3s.

Is the Tiger a viable option against SU-85s?

The problem of going directly to a doctrinal tank is that your opponent can then go to a fast T3, with T70s and T34s. In that case, pak's and schreks are your friends.

EDIT: Also, how many SU-85s can an Elephant take head-on? Definitely 1, definitely not 3. Can it take 2?

Elephant is definitely the best solution to SU85s. Since SU85s (and the T4 building in general) can't really do anything to infantry, you should be able to just stay on infantry for a long time while saving fuel for the elephant.

Is the Tiger a viable option against SU-85s?

The problem of going directly to a doctrinal tank is that your opponent can then go to a fast T3, with T70s and T34s. In that case, pak's and schreks are your friends.

EDIT: Also, how many SU-85s can an Elephant take head-on? Definitely 1, definitely not 3. Can it take 2?

It can easily beat 2 head on, but not 3 unless you get a few shots off before they get in range (which is actually pretty typical).

Yeah, it can be a bit tricky getting those 5 cp's though, but I also think t2 into super call-in tank is better than T3 if your opponent is gonna get su85's.

I find that often when i go T3 i get stuck in it and keep building t3 units, while i would have been better off either teching to t4 or waiting for an elefant/tiger.

I've tried to do T2 to tiger or elephant a few times. The big tanks help sure, but I've often taken a beating and lost too much map for too long. So i'm not sure it really works. Or I could just not be good enough :/

I've tried to do T2 to tiger or elephant a few times. The big tanks help sure, but I've often taken a beating and lost too much map for too long. So i'm not sure it really works. Or I could just not be good enough :/

thats exactly what happens to me when going for hero tanks...without p4 all they need is a kv8 and its game over shreks and AT gun is useless vs kv8

Well not only that, for me it's mostly been a question of not being able to counter T70s and T34s properly. If the Soviets have that and snipers an infantry based army really suffers.

im hating those shock troop doctrin with su-85's

the problem with sticking with T2 is that your anti inf capability (no ostwind) and AT capability (since you have no PZ4/StuG to kill t34/t70) makes you a sitting duck in anything more than 2 v 2.

Unless your opponent is not too smart and you positioned ur AT guns well your in a world of trouble.

Don't forget even if he gets 85's and you have no armor he will probably just invest in shock troops or worse get a KV8 which comes out way way way earlier than an elephant or tiger.

There is a reason why most of the tournaments are won by soviets ... they are unstoppable at the higher skill levels.

The best counter to KV8/Shocktroop doctrines are to force him to get guards vs T2 vehicles.

Early to midgame the best counter is G43 (moving towards the sniper for a countersnipe), mortar halftrack incendiary artillery, MG bunkers (soviet T1 are weak against bunkers), rifle grenade, camo ambush, 2-3 SCs and/or flameht.
Dont get gren lmg's until the snipers are killed because they cant fire on the move like G43 which are crucial. Kite, bait or flank with the T2 vehicles that are more manpower efficient than sniper/guards/sc/cons which force him to blob and slow down cap speed.
Against T1-T4 (not T1-T3) winning the manpower war are more important than fuel because SU85s are not a threat to heavy inf play and soviet need alot of manpower/time to both cap the map and defend with guards/snipers/cons combo vs Gren spam + T2. Dont try to force a fight against his blob and cap or flank around it. When he spread out to cap the map that is when you force a fight to hopefully catch the snipers or guards out of position. When guards retreat kite cons with vehicles and when snipers retreat kill the guards with inf. It's all about divide and conquer because unsupported snipers, guards and SU85 are easy to counter or to force a retreat.

Midgame support your inf with either P4 command tank, brumbar, ostwind or panzerwerfer. If you are winning against snipers/guards/cons then get shreaks/paks vs SU85, if you fail to win then pak43 or elephant are best late game counter to divide and conquer. A supported pak43 are great because it allow you to push back the SU85s and give more options to support your inf with fuel heavy tanks/artillery in the midgame rather than saving fuel for elephant.

http://www.coh2.org/replays/7649/savy-vs-cobra

This replay show how I used panzerwerfer/railway artillery + Pak43 + Inf support tanks to kill most of his inf and 120mm mortars.

Learning to counter suppported snipers does require some training but it's not OP. Need more training myself but once you know how to counter it you wont fear snipers anymore.

The best counter to KV8/Shocktroop doctrines are to force him to get guards vs T2 vehicles.

Early to midgame the best counter is G43 (moving towards the sniper for a countersnipe), mortar halftrack incendiary artillery, MG bunkers (soviet T1 are weak against bunkers), rifle grenade, camo ambush, 2-3 SCs and/or flameht.

Learning to counter suppported snipers does require some training but it's not OP. Need more training myself but once you know how to counter it you wont fear snipers anymore.

+1, This is a great tactic. The more i play Soviets, the more i actually dislike guards (even though i know they are probably the best unit soviets have). The problem with Shocktroops are they are anti-inf, ONLY; while guards are anti-inf AND anti-light vechicles (and small dmg to tanks).

G43s to count snipe sniper are awesome as soviets' current meta game doesn't include suppression (rarely do you see maxiums or M3+Quad cannon [yes, that suppresses]), so you can run in your grens with little to no risk; as well as G43s do big dmg to conscripts(especially retreating). In addtion, the more i play soviets, the more i realize how important snipers are.

Basically once the "engine" so to speak is up, it is near impossible to turn around (especially if you didn't bring along an Elefant commander). The real trick is to never let him actually use the combo comfortably.

I have won a few games in the past where the Soviet player ALMOST had the combo up to full efficiency by I just kept harassing with P4s and making his snipers retreat. I lost lots of units but I screwed his main strategy as he was too busy trying to force it to work to notice that I stole map control from him.