Maybe its just me, but I just played a game where I encountered satchel charges used against my infantry.
It was a 2v2 so some lag was present probably, but the damn things could simply not be dodged! I started moving when I saw the windup animation and yet I would get reduced to 1 man every time. this happened probably 5 times in the game, forcing retreat on every occasion!
Was this game just laggy or are satchels really this good?
Dodging satchel charges??
19 Aug 2013, 05:42 AM
#1
Posts: 589
19 Aug 2013, 05:45 AM
#2
Posts: 589
just read on another forum that perhaps the issue is when the penals have flamethrowers it causes the squad under fire to dance around attempting to avoid the fire rather than moving in a direct line to dodge the satchel charge.
19 Aug 2013, 05:50 AM
#3
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedFlames make infantry cohesion retarded for some reason.
Satchels are seriously dangerous, but considering their short throw range, they are almost as big a risk to the thrower as the receiver.
Overall, I think Satchels could use 1+s timer on the ground. Means they are still good vs buildings, but risk/reward for such a huge ans powerful blast isma bit off against the timer, since the timer is so short there is little opportunity to move models out ofnits AoE.
Satchels are seriously dangerous, but considering their short throw range, they are almost as big a risk to the thrower as the receiver.
Overall, I think Satchels could use 1+s timer on the ground. Means they are still good vs buildings, but risk/reward for such a huge ans powerful blast isma bit off against the timer, since the timer is so short there is little opportunity to move models out ofnits AoE.
19 Aug 2013, 06:06 AM
#4
Posts: 139
It's 3 seconds as is - if you can't dodge that, how are you faring with grenades? They have the health of conscripts and need to be giving you a hug before they can throw the satchel - their intentions should be pretty obvious. So either FF them down on approach or just hit retreat worse comes to worse. Penals need an armour or health buff as is - the risk/reward is already huge for them to try to run in that close with such low health. This is why pretty much no one uses them outside goofing around in team games. 360 MP, plus 60 muni for flamer plus 45 muni for satchel just doesn't do enough for you. I'd rather have flamer engineers plant mines or something for the price tag.
19 Aug 2013, 06:07 AM
#5
Posts: 476
You can be happy if 1 model survived. lol.
How to deal with them: Don't let Penals get near. They have high dmg, but low hp.
How to deal with them: Don't let Penals get near. They have high dmg, but low hp.
I play mostly 1v1 and my post are with 1v1 in mind.
19 Aug 2013, 06:19 AM
#6
Posts: 589
I dodge grenades without issue
19 Aug 2013, 06:25 AM
#7
Posts: 476
If you really think dodging satchels is as easy as dodging grenades you trully never used satchel.
I play mostly 1v1 and my post are with 1v1 in mind.
19 Aug 2013, 06:27 AM
#8
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedThe timer is too short considering the AoE and dmg.
Infantry doesn't have time to move out of its AoE due to retarded dancing.
"Herpderp cant you dodge nades noob" is not a valid argument.
Infantry doesn't have time to move out of its AoE due to retarded dancing.
"Herpderp cant you dodge nades noob" is not a valid argument.
19 Aug 2013, 06:44 AM
#9
Posts: 150
Infantry doesn't have time to move out of its AoE due to retarded dancing.
and also retarded command lag.
19 Aug 2013, 07:49 AM
#10
Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41
Either the satchel explosion radius should be reduced, or the timer increased by a bit. Everything likes to herpderp while given move orders in CoH2 so you can't really that reliably get out of it without some luck if you weren't moving before it hit the ground.
That said, it would be nice if this satchel nerf came with some kind of buff to either survivability (ie. more durability than a conscript, please) or ranged attack ability (right now a single grenadier squad is pretty much equal to them at range). Feels like they're mostly made for laming people with the two flamethrowers from a scout car and then going to their base to satchel them, in field combat they're pretty bad for cost...
That said, it would be nice if this satchel nerf came with some kind of buff to either survivability (ie. more durability than a conscript, please) or ranged attack ability (right now a single grenadier squad is pretty much equal to them at range). Feels like they're mostly made for laming people with the two flamethrowers from a scout car and then going to their base to satchel them, in field combat they're pretty bad for cost...
19 Aug 2013, 07:55 AM
#11
Posts: 2425
Permanently Bannedranged attack ability (right now a single grenadier squad is pretty much equal to them at range)
They have far better DPS than Grens:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0
Grens n/m/f: 3.803/2.415/1.027
Penal n/m/f: 5.725/3.611/1.497
That's including reload time.
19 Aug 2013, 08:12 AM
#12
Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41
They have far better DPS than Grens:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0
Grens n/m/f: 3.803/2.415/1.027
Penal n/m/f: 5.725/3.611/1.497
That's including reload time.
You meant to say they have better DPS when the grenadiers don't have an LMG42 or G43s. They're 50% more expensive than grenadiers with less survivability and utility so I don't think wanting to see some kind of buff to them should their one trick get nerfed be that unreasonable. I'd love to see a long range weapon upgrade for munitions option on them for instance.
19 Aug 2013, 08:24 AM
#13
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedYou meant to say they have better DPS when the grenadiers don't have an LMG42 or G43s.
Obviously without LMG or G43. If I'd have given stats for LMG or G43s, Id have said so.
They are all viewable on the link I provided. The stats I referenced are for unupgraded Grens and Penals, and per model.
The TOTAL unit DPS of these is as follows:
(n/m/f)
Vanilla Grens: 15.21/9.66/4.11
Grens with 2x G43: 34.01/16.51/9.01
Penals: 34.35/21.66/8.98
So you see Penals, ACTUALLY have very close far and near DPS, and a notable advantage in mid range, compared to Gren G43s. They have DOUBLE the DPS of a vanilla Gren squad.
with less survivability.
How do you figure that?
Its 6 man with 1 armor, which is equivalent to Cons, which is equivalent to Gren 4 man with 1.5 armor.
I'm not disputing Penals may need changes, but anyone claiming their DPS or survival is lower than Grens is just flat out wrong and false.
19 Aug 2013, 09:53 AM
#14
Posts: 255
Grens with an LMG42 does 39.224 at near range. I am unsure what the DPS of penals are with a flamethrower as the dmaage is somewhat low but the insta gib chance is whats makes them deadly.
19 Aug 2013, 09:57 AM
#15
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedGrens+LMG in near range do 28.51 DPS.
3x3.803+17.098=28.51
You need to use the figure that includes reload times.
The complete table is:
Vanilla Grens: 15.21/9.66/4.11
Grens with 2x G43: 34.01/16.51/9.01
Grens with LMG: 28.51/23.05/17.60
Penals: 34.35/21.66/8.98
So, Gren LMG is worse than Penals or G43s in close range, but better at far range.
3x3.803+17.098=28.51
You need to use the figure that includes reload times.
The complete table is:
Vanilla Grens: 15.21/9.66/4.11
Grens with 2x G43: 34.01/16.51/9.01
Grens with LMG: 28.51/23.05/17.60
Penals: 34.35/21.66/8.98
So, Gren LMG is worse than Penals or G43s in close range, but better at far range.
19 Aug 2013, 10:04 AM
#16
Posts: 255
Thanks, i was unsure if you used the reload or non-reload units. do you know what the true DPS of penals with a flamethrower is?? the value seems quite low on the spreadsheet but i know from experiance the crita-gib boosts that up with some degree of luck
19 Aug 2013, 10:23 AM
#17
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedDunno. He's listed two different Flamer types for Penals and CE's, whereas ingame the tooltip states the same weapon name.
According to http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/flame_throwers there are also two types on Sov.
The one he used for Penals:
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/flame_throwers/11
The one he used for CEs:
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/flame_throwers/12
Superficially the Penal Flamer seems to be inferior, with longer aim/reload times leading to less effective DPS time. I think something is wrong with these flamer figures overall though, and looking at this mess is giving me that very familiar old #&¤/ing headache that all so often follows from trying to make sense of Relic's numbers ffs...
According to http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/flame_throwers there are also two types on Sov.
The one he used for Penals:
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/flame_throwers/11
The one he used for CEs:
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/flame_throwers/12
Superficially the Penal Flamer seems to be inferior, with longer aim/reload times leading to less effective DPS time. I think something is wrong with these flamer figures overall though, and looking at this mess is giving me that very familiar old #&¤/ing headache that all so often follows from trying to make sense of Relic's numbers ffs...
22 Aug 2013, 17:22 PM
#18
Posts: 589
this replay is an example of the devastating power of the satchel charge! just like my game he reduces the opponent squads to 1 man after each toss of the satchel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZGpy0u1WiA
edit: i'm halfway through the replay at the mid-game analysis and there have been 3 satchel throws, each one reduced the enemy squads to 1 man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZGpy0u1WiA
edit: i'm halfway through the replay at the mid-game analysis and there have been 3 satchel throws, each one reduced the enemy squads to 1 man.
22 Aug 2013, 18:55 PM
#19
Posts: 627
If you have any sort of command lag(i.e. 3/5 games) then you're going to have to retreat or die. That's pretty much it.
Satchel Charges are ridiculously powerful. The AOE is quite large for a 3 second charge. Its saving grace is that because of pathing your Penals will probably walk into it and kill themselves.
If that isn't risk-reward, I don't know what is.
Satchel Charges are ridiculously powerful. The AOE is quite large for a 3 second charge. Its saving grace is that because of pathing your Penals will probably walk into it and kill themselves.
If that isn't risk-reward, I don't know what is.
22 Aug 2013, 19:33 PM
#20
Posts: 176
FYI Nullist Penals rarely beat a Grenadier in 1v1 up front fight as there so damn fragile. This isn't even factoring in the 50% cost increase in comparison.
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