My observations on development of balance discussions

Howdy!

I've been playing coh 2 since the beta in 2013 and loved the first one albeit I stumbled on it just a year before coh 2 was released. I've never really felt the need to be too active on the forums but after most of my friends stopped playing coh after December balance patch hit for various reasons I wanted to share some of the observations I've made over the years.

For many years the forums had a lot of great people who based their opinions and views on hard facts and stats and who brought interesting insights to our knowledge like the amazing Cruzzis the More You Know megapost. Posts like these helped relic and the community to find game breaking bugs and whatnot and I'd say they contributed much to the players and the balancing of the game.

Nowadays I feel there are less such topics created and most posts are based more on feeling rather than hard facts. (as a side note I find it very unfortunate that coh2stats isn't being updated anymore with its faction and rank based win-loss ratios which overall helped to see the state of the game in different skill levels and game modes ) I find it troubling that I've seen many good topics derailed or trivialized by lazy counter"arguments". Here are a few made up examples that I've seen used in various posts to disregard the original point:

1. Argument: USF riflemen struggle against multiple MGs. Counter: Smoke and flank L2P.

2. Argument: Wehr T4 is not very viable in 1v1. Counter: playercard plz --> rank 5000 player so argument invalid

3. Argument: Artillery cover is overperforming. Counter: you should have won the game before that.

4. Argument: Jackon is slightly overperforming. Counter: You're an axis fanboy so you want to nerf every Allied unit to the ground.

Posts like these are not that contributing and will usually start to sidetrack the subject and reduce it to useless bickering. I'm not sure if it's me not focusing on such replies as much in the past or are arguments like these used more nowadays instead of facts and stats from the game. I know it's easier to say a post is just pure bullpudding than to make a fleshed out counter argument to it. Sometimes it might feel extremely futile and a waste of time but I think that is the only way to keep a debate about balance productive and one needs to invest some time to his/her answers to keep the thread productive.

I find it unfortunate especially in threads where people try to propose new ideas on how to revamp certain units. While there often are some oversights I think it would be better to try and improve upon the idea rather than just saying "Your idea is completely wrong because you forgot this one interaction between another unit and it should be scrapped completely"

Also there seems to be more divide between the community. Sometimes it feels like there are only two extremes to choose from: either a full blown Axis fanboys or a total Allies fanboy without a multitude of choices in between. Such mentality makes it easy to discussions to devolve into a Our side vs Their side debates. There are no winners if one side would win the debate and in a theoretical scenario get to dictate the course of the balance changes. The weaker side would lose its playerbase and the "winning side" would have no one to play against or most matches would be just roflstomps without offering much of a challenge.

I wanted to make this post because I think that at this stage of CoH2's life cycle with maybe one balance patch coming in the future we should try to focus on finding common ground rather than fighting over trivial things and avoiding "identity politics". (of course coh is not a larger than life thing in itself and should be trivial in any case ) I'm not suggesting people should stop making arguments and say everything is in a good spot right now but focus more on substance of their post instead for example focusing on discrediting their arch nemesis.

This is a rather small community (but extremely passionate) in the first place so it would be great to see more people focusing on finding solutions together rather than trying to see who can win the most debates and can KO their opponents better. With Iron Harvest on the horizon which I suspect will compete with CoH's playerbase I fear that several people want to switch to that if they feel they have been wrongfully ridiculed or their opinions and observations have been ignored or discredited without good reason.

PS. I'm not sure if this is the proper forum to post this so feel free to move it but I wanted to share my thoughts and hopefully hear opinions from the community on whether they agree with me or not. I hope this does not devolve into a personality politics discussion I mentioned earlier

Hey dude, long time no see. I also noticed that you un-friended me on Steam.

I'm the guy with which you made that group on Steam called "Panzer IV Command" btw, we played a lot of CoH2 back in the day.

Anyhow, I can't agree with you more, especially on your first point about counter arguments amounting to nothing more than bickering on the forums, especially for individuals like Katitof whose sole purpose in life I think is to do just that, apart from telling me that since I'm a "comp stomper" my opinion is irrelevant, altho he is forgetting that his relevant opinion-ed ass got banned from these same forums for a long time.

Hey dude, long time no see. I also noticed that you un-friended me on Steam.

I'm the guy with which you made that group on Steam called "Panzer IV Command" btw, we played a lot of CoH2 back in the day.

Anyhow, I can't agree more with you, especially on your first point about counter arguments amounting to nothing more than bickering on the forums, especially for individuals like Katitof whose sole purpose in life I think is to do just that, apart from telling me that since I'm a "comp stomper" my opinion is irrelevant, altho he is forgetting that his relevant opinion-ed ass got banned from these same forums for a long time.

I remember you mate Few years back my steam friend cap was pretty much maxed out at the time so had to do some house cleaning, feel free to re-add me now that I have plenty of room. And yeah I realized clans in coh 2 are pretty useless since it's such a small community and there is very little actual clan stuff so kinda forgot about the whole thing.

I remember you mate Few years back my steam friend cap was pretty much maxed out at the time so had to do some house cleaning, feel free to re-add me now that I have plenty of room. And yeah I realized clans in coh 2 are pretty useless since it's such a small community and there is very little actual clan stuff so kinda forgot about the whole thing.

No problem dude, I'm just glad that we played in the small amount of time that we did.

And sorry for de-railing the topic.

Howdy!

I

1. Argument: USF riflemen struggle against multiple MGs. Counter: Smoke and flank L2P.

2. Argument: Wehr T4 is not very viable in 1v1. Counter: playercard plz --> rank 5000 player so argument invalid

3. Argument: Artillery cover is overperforming. Counter: you should have won the game before that.

4. Argument: Jackon is slightly overperforming. Counter: You're an axis fanboy so you want to nerf every Allied unit to the ground.

Don't you realize how much progress this implies!!

Once upon a time the answers, instead of being game related, were simulation related. Only one of two answers were ever provided, either the unit and ability was the way it was because of historical simulation or because of game play value. (Mind you the beauty of this is you get to pick whichever one of the answers suits your already predisposed outcome.)

An example: Why is the Tiger such an overpowered unit? (for arguments sake)
Possible counter argument: Because that would be historical.
Counter: Then how come it doesn't randomly break down or run out of fuel?
response: Because that would make for a lousy game balance.

Once you heard one of the two answers (historical vs gameplay) for every balance argument in the game.

snip

Personally historical arguments in COH2 are moronic, this game is not a historical reenactment of WW2 IMO unit models and basic understanding of roles of each unit/weapon are the only necessities and actual game play balance comes way before historical authenticity.

Anyhow, I can't agree with you more, especially on your first point about counter arguments amounting to nothing more than bickering on the forums, especially for individuals like Katitof whose sole purpose in life I think is to do just that, apart from telling me that since I'm a "comp stomper" my opinion is irrelevant, altho he is forgetting that his relevant opinion-ed ass got banned from these same forums for a long time.

Human interaction is very complex so there is no easy answer to why people have so much bias.
IMHO, we have a moral obligation to challenge propaganda/bias and this ofc will create conflict both ingame and outgame.
This is also what a parent would call "tough love" to prepare kids for adulthood and facing the tough reality of life.
Soon or later that kid has to face the reality that Santa Claus doesn't exist. No, you can't be a rockstar without talent and addicted to attention. Historically speaking, it was often the "Father" role to practice "tough love".

A Father's Tough Love Is the Harder Job

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimblasingame/2011/06/20/fathers-tough-love-harder-job/#405cab68132d
Unlike a mother's sweet love, a father's tough love, as we know it, does not exist outside of humans.
When a father's parental toughness is required, especially when applied to an indignant recipient (read: teenager), it requires a love that has found the courage to endure a negative response and a willingness to defer gratification - sometimes for years.
No one is more keenly aware of the distinction between these two demonstrations of love than a single parent, where both kinds are required of the same person, perhaps within minutes.

I would make a strong argument that many kids growing up today lacks a strong father role model and that's one of the reasons we are seeing a narcissism epidemic in the West.

Here are some videos/links that highlight the value of free speech which ideally includes good "counter arguments" or what I call "Open-Mindedness". Free speech is essentially useless without it.
Jordan Peterson gives a longer explanation in the video below why free speech alone is not enough to have that open dialogue.

The Valley Of Open-Mindedness;

Why Freedom of Speech Is Necessary | Jordan B Peterson

Lindsay Shepherd's Free Speech Battle with Laurier
Great example of "tolerance propaganda" destroying free speech in Canada university;
http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/wallace-lindsay-shepherd-lays-bare-ideological-divide-on-canadian-campuses


Ex-Facebook president Sean Parker admits he helped build a monster
http://nordic.businessinsider.com/ex-facebook-president-sean-parker-social-network-human-vulnerability-2017-11?r=UK&IR=T



Who created the key pillars for the internet and the free flow of information? DARPA.
ARPANET
https://www.darpa.mil/about-us/timeline/arpanet
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Defense-Advanced-Research-Projects-Agency

Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), , also called (1958–72 and 1993–96) Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA), U.S. government agency created in 1958 to facilitate research in technology with potential military applications. Most of DARPA’s projects are classified secrets, but many of its military innovations have had great influence in the civilian world, particularly in the areas of electronics, telecommunications, and computer science. It is perhaps best known for ARPANET, an early network of time-sharing computers that formed the basis of the Internet.

DARPA owes its creation to the October 1957 launch of Sputnik by the Soviet Union, which many Americans viewed as a technological achievement as unexpected and challenging as Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor. Among other countermeasures, President Dwight D. Eisenhower created DARPA to sort out and organize competing American missile and space projects and to delineate boundaries separating military from civilian space research. By 1960 DARPA had accomplished this first goal by transferring all civilian space programs to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and military space programs to the various branches of the U.S. armed forces.

Soviet colonel dubbed ‘the man who saved the world’ for refusing to push the nuclear button in 1983 dies age 77
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4498462/stanislav-petrov-dead-cold-war-nuclear-war-soviet-union/

A FORMER Soviet military colonel dubbed "the Man Who Saved the World" who bravely decided not to start a nuclear war with the United States in 1983, has died aged 77.

Stanislav Petrov kept his courageous decision secret for eight years before it was revealed in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed and the Cold War ended.

Without freedom of speech, people would never get to hear stories like that.

The road to evil is paved with good intentions.
Tyranny is the norm on this planet, free speech is new. The important lesson from WW2 is not that Nazi Germany/Soviet Russia was evil but that this can easily happen again if ANY movements try to mess with certain key pillars such as free speech.

Once enough people fully understand how valuable this "gift of freedom" are they will naturally start to listen more and talk/write with less bias.
For great storytelling in games/movies, I love some of Joseph Campbel ideas that were used in Star Wars.
Joseph Campbell / Power of Myth / The Mythology of Star Wars


This brings us full circle to how "forced diversity" in Hollywood is destroying great storytelling in movies and coming soon to destroy games as well;

Celebrities that Hate PC Culture Compilation Vol. 5

South Park - Member Chewbacca Again? (80s Member Berries without PC)

Authentic 80's time machine;

snip

Speaking of quality posts

An interesting read with a lot of good points. (But I admit I'm having a hard time watching clips of Jordan Peterson without getting PTSD flashbacks to the Cathy Newman interview)

Out of curiosity might I inquire what do you study / do for a living?

Confirmation Bias is also a very strong factor

Confirmation Bias is also a very strong factor

True, it is almost impossible to avoid that bias in CoH2, which popularises the idea of us vs them (Axis vs Allies) through its game mechanics.

Confirmation Bias is also a very strong factor

For balance discussions there's also a lot of survivor bias. With every patch iteration the amount of contributing voices diminished.

1- Wear off. People move on into other game/activities.
Those worth having a discussion with, had been either members of staff, top ranked players or modders.
Nothing you can do about this, as this is a natural result.

2- Dunning Krueger/Cognitive bias.
People overestimate their capabilities or because they had been playing for so long, thinks that the reason there are problems is the game and not themselves.
How many threads are opened in the balance office in comparison to the stage office. How many people upload replays of their games?

PD: rank is overrated nowadays. Todays top200 is like top500 after 1 or 2 years after the game released, even more so when there were plenty of smurfs and no ladder decay.

3- Annonymatum is king and there's no way to filter people's post by value. My view on restricting the forum has always been:
-Anyone can open a thread on lobby/gameplay and comment on it.
-Balance section requires a playercard/replay uploaded to the site. Either:
A---ANYONE can create a new thread. NOT EVERYONE can comment (obviously the one opening the thread can comment on it). Dunno where to cross the line but something like top 25% (something like 500-1000 on todays rank) should be the bare minimum.
B---Promote/demote peoples right to post there.
The point is creating a place where some "serious" conversation can be made. Not something as closed to what the old steam/beta/whatever group was, but a place with less shitposting, open to the people to see.

CoH2 is what it is. If you want something to change, things have to be done early on, on either Iron Harvest or the future CoH3.