Unfortunately, souls don't pay salaries nor keeps publishers happy. I'm fine with DLC as long as it remains to be skins, sp/PvE/coop commanders and whatever affects multiplayer should be proper faction expansions only.
What's your point exactly? Relic are known for Dawn of War and Company of Heroes, if those games didn't pay their salaries then how the hell have we ended up here?
I think that's bullshit and you know it, they can make a good game without selling their soul for money, we know it and they know it, question is if they want to.
Or if SEGA will allow them to, with which I totally agree that they're pulling the strings.
I still believe that companies can make good games while making a buck on the side, and indie game development studios are proving that every single day.
What's your point exactly? Relic are known for Dawn of War and Company of Heroes, if those games didn't pay their salaries then how the hell have we ended up here?
I think that's bullshit and you know it, they can make a good game without selling their soul for money, we know it and they know it, question is if they want to.
Or if SEGA will allow them to, with which I totally agree that they're pulling the strings.
I still believe that companies can make good games while making a buck on the side, and indie game development studios are proving that every single day.
DoW3 was probably a commercial failure. CoH2 is a 5 year old game. They have their sights now on a millions fan base game such as AoE which is probably gonna see some DLC in the form of civilizations expansions and i hope nothing else but that's not the norm nowadays.
I'm fine with DLC when it's mostly cosmetics, shortcuts for people who don't want to play a reasonable amount of time (think about Battlefield, not the grind failure on Battlefront) or properly done expansions. CoH2 was fine with ToW or skins, commanders for multiplayers was bad.
Indie developers don't create AAA games which have a way higher and more ambitious goals. Stardew Valley, Terraria, FTL, Theyarebillions, FEZ, Undertale, Spelunky, Super Meat boy, Cuphead, Don't Starve, This war of mine, etc... I don't see them with high production values. Plenty of VAs working on 4/5 languages, 3d graphics, marketing campaigns, flying them to show their product on plenty of game conventions, etc. Do they need to rent a server for thousands of players or they can just release any update via steam ?
If someone can mention any high production indie do so, cause the ones i can think of had their backs covered by mega corporations such as Sony. No man Sky was a flop, Journey can barely be called an indie. If there's any i'm sure they are mostly a single player experience.
PD: can multi million patreon project such as Star citizen be considered a indie ? Exceptions are not the norm.
Indie developers don't create AAA games which have a way higher and more ambitious goals. Stardew Valley, Terraria, FTL, Theyarebillions, FEZ, Undertale, Spelunky, Super Meat boy, Cuphead, Don't Starve, This war of mine, etc... I don't see them with high production values. Plenty of VAs working on 4/5 languages, 3d graphics, marketing campaigns, flying them to show their product on plenty of game conventions, etc. Do they need to rent a server for thousands of players or they can just release any update via steam ?
If someone can mention any high production indie do so, cause the ones i can think of had their backs covered by mega corporations such as Sony. No man Sky was a flop, Journey can barely be called an indie. If there's any i'm sure they are mostly a single player experience.
PD: can multi million patreon project such as Star citizen be considered a indie ? Exceptions are not the norm.
Does PoopG count if it was made by some unknown Korean dev?
Unfortunately, souls don't pay salaries nor keeps publishers happy. I'm fine with DLC as long as it remains to be skins, sp/PvE/coop commanders and whatever affects multiplayer should be proper faction expansions only.
So co-op commanders are essential "pay to help", not as bad as "pay to win/grind to win" sentiments.
See below references and comments/blog by Ramin Shokrizade (top FTP game economist) talking about "collaborative monetization/economy" in Warframe and pro-consumer monetization.
Ramin Shokrizade
3 Jan 2018 at 5:10 pm PST
The original Polygon article is a long read and really doesn’t talk about the game economy at all. I was a bit disappointed. The main take aways, which are repeated over and over, are that they listen to their player community and that they don’t consider the advantage you can buy as pay to win because the focus of the game is co-op not pvp. This they try to frame it as “pay to help”. The money you spend doesn’t help others at all directly but by spending on yourself you will eventually help others more. Sort of a “trickle down theory”. It’s a bit of a reach. I’m glad they’ve kept the gambling mechanics to a minimum. None of this stuff is “economy” though. When I hear the phrase “fair economy”, I think player trade. This is in the game but not explained at all other than it sounds like something similar to the Diablo 3 RMAH which was a commercial failure.
*SNIP*
It sounds like they were trying to avoid the problems I predicted with the Diablo 3 RMAH in my prediction paper I wrote 6 months before it was launched:
Which is good since Blizzard didn't react to this information until almost two years later when they were forced to by tanking sales. The solution used in Warframe is pretty decent, but seems to add a lot of complexity. That complexity seems to me would favor long term players over new players, a situation mirroring the primary obstacles restricting growth in EVE Online.
From Warframe/Digital Extremes, Sega Europe hired Alfonso Cubias JR and Senior Marketing Manager since 2016 https://www.linkedin.com/in/alfonsocubiasjr/ Video with Alfonso Cubias, 2013 (intro 1:53)
CoH2 PvP Commanders Relic chasing the Golden Goose 2013-2016 RIP;
For Relic, the important issue here is the lack of transparency and confused new players that don't understand/accept the COH2 business model.
28:00+ listen to what AngryJoe as a reviewer had to say about the ingame shop.
Currently, AngryJoe review has 370.575 youtube views. IMO, AngryJoe review was fair and balanced
If Relic went FTP with the base game (Soviet and Ostheer) then "maybe" they could get away with pay to win/grind to win sentiments. Personally, I don't think multiplayer is pay to win anymore but Relic should try to see where the confusion comes from new players.
CoH2 multiplayer is already pretty complex for new players so PvP progression with commanders is mostly flawed/redundant game design. Not only do new players have to overcome the "skill gap" they also have to deal with PvP progression for many hours that is neither fun or engaging.
CoH pro-consumer monetization
For future games/new game modes (not necessarily CoH3), if Relic wants to continue making money from PvP commanders/progression they should learn the Wargaming business models which according to Ramin Shokrizade are outperforming the MOBA business model.
Ramin Shokrizade is working on some new business models that are still NDA/proprietary. But the Wargaming business model from WoT is mostly public for everyone to learn.
Microsoft investigated/vetted Ramin Shokrizade for a year before they determined he was the top pro-consumer advocate and gaming economist within the western FTP business. So before nit-picking Ramin at very least know he is on our side as consumers.
Western FTP publisher, if they want to, can still make good money from pro-consumer business models which is sustainable growth. They really have no good excuse anymore for not doing this.
Monetization and Economy Designer
Microsoft
Dates Employed Sep 2012 – Aug 2013 Employment Duration 1 yr
LocationRedmond, CA
I was the first game economist utilized by Microsoft, to guide them through the design of their first internally developed free to play game, Project Spark. I worked with the lead game designers to modify the core game design to optimize commercial success inside a Free to Play business environment. Converting what was essentially a development engine, into a game, presented unique challenges. A key component was to create reward mechanisms for player retention.
Applied Game Economist and Neuroeconomist
Company NameIndependent Researcher
Dates EmployedJun 2005 – Present Employment Duration12 yrs 9 mos
While I have been on the cutting edge of MMOG monetization for the last 16 years, it has only been since 2005 that I dedicated myself totally to the design of advanced virtual economic and monetization systems. I have written over 100 papers on the subject, some proprietary. I am interviewed regularly in the global press, and have advised the regulators of over 70 advanced nations.
As the first game economist available to the Western game development industry, I was the first to be employed to companies such as Microsoft, Wargaming, Nickelodeon, Take 2 Interactive, and many others. Since my skill sets had never been deployed prior to my arrival, it took some time to explain to companies what I do and how I can assist them. That has not changed significantly with the companies I have not yet assisted. My techniques are still unique in the industry since I invented them and only publish the bottom 25% of what I know.
Now that I have developed the functional framework for game neuroeconomics, going well beyond what is possible with game economics, the process of explaining how I can multiply complex product revenues starts over. I am happy to explain what I do under NDA with serious candidate studios and companies. I've worked very hard to help our industry on many levels and with even minor vetting (as in, at least a Google search...) you will see I am a true industry unicorn who has already value-added in the range of 8 digits USD per year on two of my previous shipped products.
I am extremely challenge-seeking, so if you have a very complex/novel project, you will surely get my attention. I also enjoy volunteering my services to media, educational institutions, and sovereign entities.
Game Economist
Company NameWargaming America
Dates EmployedAug 2013 – Jun 2015 Employment Duration1 yr 11 mos
LocationAustin, Texas Area
I joined a very carefully assembled team of gaming quantitative and social scientists in a new studio in the Austin area. We provide support and guidance for a total of 16 studios world-wide. I was the only game economist among our 3000+ employees, and acted mostly autonomously as my own department in the company.
Holy shit, I was so hyped for this game mode when they teased it. Such a shame that it was never released.
This could have been so cool:
Each month there could have been an event e.g. "The allies have invaded Normandy!" then every win/loss will move the map a very slight bit and in the end you can see if the Reich defeated the invaders or if the Allies fought their way into the heart of Germany.
You could have endless scenarios for that...
"The Battle of Kursk" where every tank kill counted and moved the map in the East.
"Fall Blau", "Stalingrad", etc...
Holy shit, I was so hyped for this game mode when they teased it. Such a shame that it was never released.
This could have been so cool:
Each month there could have been an event e.g. "The allies have invaded Normandy!" then every win/loss will move the map a very slight bit and in the end you can see if the Reich defeated the invaders or if the Allies fought their way into the heart of Germany.
You could have endless scenarios for that...
"The Battle of Kursk" where every tank kill counted and moved the map in the East.
"Fall Blau", "Stalingrad", etc...
But no, we got MLNW5.
I can see why they scrapped this feature, given how community is obsessed with win ratios and that feature being glorified WL ratio chart without context, people would start bitching about balance the minute it would change from 50:50 to 51:49.
I can see why they scrapped this feature, given how community is obsessed with win ratios and that feature being glorified WL ratio chart without context, people would start bitching about balance the minute it would change from 50:50 to 51:49.
Thats a fair assumption knowing how triggered people get over it. The idea of a diverse and dynamic CoH multiplayer landscape does sorta fall into the missions similar to what are available in World of Tanks as well as Ships. It wouldn't surprise me if they scrapped the mode in order to focus on other projects or to simply work on a new game, granted that screenshot -if I recall correctly- came out in summer 2014 and could have been simply a proof of concept that is slightly similar to coh online but could have been the time they decided to make a new faction insted.
As for the future of CoH3 creating a new dynamic mode like that would give the community some nice goals and reasons to play every month+ or so. Along with the new mode we might have even seen a larger pool of maps or ones that switch in and out as we move across Europe and even north Africa if we look at the most recent survey.
IMO it would have been closer to Planetsides perpetual map control war, or the soulless multiplayer campaign maps in Total War. Or Red Orchestra/Rising Storm.
There's little tangibility to this kinda map. The point of it is to be a content vehicle, but there's got to be the content to deliver.
IMO it would have been closer to Planetsides perpetual map control war, or the soulless multiplayer campaign maps in Total War. Or Red Orchestra/Rising Storm.
There's little tangibility to this kinda map. The point of it is to be a content vehicle, but there's got to be the content to deliver.
Good point as well. IMO you'd run out of bulletins eventually but maybe that might have been relived by community made skins and such. Granted no one wants to do things for free but it might have been better to simply ask a few artists to throw in community skins.
DoW3 was probably a commercial failure. CoH2 is a 5 year old game. They have their sights now on a millions fan base game such as AoE which is probably gonna see some DLC in the form of civilizations expansions and i hope nothing else but that's not the norm nowadays.
I'm fine with DLC when it's mostly cosmetics, shortcuts for people who don't want to play a reasonable amount of time (think about Battlefield, not the grind failure on Battlefront) or properly done expansions. CoH2 was fine with ToW or skins, commanders for multiplayers was bad.
Indie developers don't create AAA games which have a way higher and more ambitious goals. Stardew Valley, Terraria, FTL, Theyarebillions, FEZ, Undertale, Spelunky, Super Meat boy, Cuphead, Don't Starve, This war of mine, etc... I don't see them with high production values. Plenty of VAs working on 4/5 languages, 3d graphics, marketing campaigns, flying them to show their product on plenty of game conventions, etc. Do they need to rent a server for thousands of players or they can just release any update via steam ?
If someone can mention any high production indie do so, cause the ones i can think of had their backs covered by mega corporations such as Sony. No man Sky was a flop, Journey can barely be called an indie. If there's any i'm sure they are mostly a single player experience.
PD: can multi million patreon project such as Star citizen be considered a indie ? Exceptions are not the norm.
TripWire with Red Orchestra and Killing Floor and their sequels, New World Interactive with Insurgency and now Day of Infamy, in the future things like Hell Let Loose, Post-Scriptum, Iron Harvest: 1920+ as well as Squad right now.
I mean a lot of these companies are developing Triple A titles in the form of Indie games so I don't see the problem here. Also Insurgency and Day of Infamy might not be considered Triple A, however the same devs are making Insurgency: Sandstorm, basically a bigger and better Insurgency on the Unreal 4 Engine, triple A in scope generally.
TripWire with Red Orchestra and Killing Floor and their sequels, New World Interactive with Insurgency and now Day of Infamy, in the future things like Hell Let Loose, Post-Scriptum, Iron Harvest: 1920+ as well as Squad right now.
I mean a lot of these companies are developing Triple A titles in the form of Indie games so I don't see the problem here. Also Insurgency and Day of Infamy might not be considered Triple A, however the same devs are making Insurgency: Sandstorm, basically a bigger and better Insurgency on the Unreal 4 Engine, triple A in scope generally.
The first RO was an indie project but not sure you could still call it indie developers, but more so a small studio nowadays. I'll concede that RO2 (great game) is practically an AAA (for a 2011 game) and that things like Squad look pretty good (project reality team), same with all simil games. Biggest issue with this kind of titles, is that they have a niche market (simulators) and they also have a way smaller team (Relic's has 4 times more people than Tripwire).
For you, as a consumer, it might look like all of them are AAA games but they are competing on different leagues. If Relic somehow ends up been a 50 dev studio with no daddy Sega behind it's back, sure it might have a different monetization model.
The first RO was an indie project but not sure you could still call it indie developers, but more so a small studio nowadays. I'll concede that RO2 (great game) is practically an AAA (for a 2011 game) and that things like Squad look pretty good (project reality team), same with all simil games. Biggest issue with this kind of titles, is that they have a niche market (simulators) and they also have a way smaller team (Relic's has 4 times more people than Tripwire).
For you, as a consumer, it might look like all of them are AAA games but they are competing on different leagues. If Relic somehow ends up been a 50 dev studio with no daddy Sega behind it's back, sure it might have a different monetization model.
I'm also a modder mind you, so not just your ordinary usual user.
Anyhow, I'll give it to you for now until the Iron Harvest devs prove themselves and their new game in the RTS market.
I am sure that a small indie German game development studio can beat Relic's triple A titles with SEGA behind their back.
And you know why? Because they're actually listening to their god damn community and not doing it for money.
Doing something for money might be more realistic in our world but that doesn't mean that good ideals can't live long and prosper as well from time to time, and that's exactly what Relic did with DoW and CoH, and what these guys are doing with Iron Harvest again.
IMHO Relic heard these guys too much and cancelled everything (war effort and old beta commanders).
They also had a "commander builder" of sorts that they scrapped, where you would have a set amount of CPs and you could build a loadout within those CP limits.
So you could have guards, tanktraps, m-42, conscript repair, and IS2 or something.
I even talked to Kyle about giving this back (as it was basically finished, before being scrapped) and he said, maybe, but it would only be custom games. I have no idea how they thought this would be bad outside it would be hard to balance around, however I think it would allow for some fun tourneys/customs.
You cant blame Relic for wanting a piece of the console pie. Blame Microsoft for slow and weak DirectX/OpenGL support and the ensuing graphics quality arms race. If PC gaming was more reliable ages ago, consoles would not even exist now. Most gamers have no idea what makes a good videocard. Execution units, pipelines, cache, DDRx, bus bandwidth, etc are all arcane specifications most will never care to learn. Nor should they have to just to play a game.
However, I cant believe they have not made a top down mobile version of COH. Stripped down to bare essentials for some quick RTS action on the go. I have been kicking it around since I have most of written already :thinking:
For those interested, I updated the OP with a couple more old Relic interviews to support the idea of CoH coming to console.
We're on the search for Senior Programmers who are excited to code in all disciplines: AI, Engine & Optimization, Build, Gameplay, Rendering, Tools and UI.
Relic Job description - Paul Goad; (no mention of AoE)
https://uk.linkedin.com/jobs/view/producer-at-sega-601379508
*SNIP*
As an integral part of our franchise and studio, you will manage your team’s day to day development activity, challenges and successes.
*SNIP*
Encourage an open, honest and positive team environment; create a team culture that constructively gives and receives feedback, has fun, and makes the studio a better place!
*SNIP*
Experience working in a PC or console studio
Appreciate the interest and speculation - but it's too early for us to comment on anything just yet That being said, as I am talking to you now, we are certainly not planning to move away from COH as a franchise. Also, don't forget that a good portion of the studio is also already hard at work on AOE IV!
Relic news TBA
It looks like Sega or MS are gearing up to buy a new Vancouver studio for their mobile games IPs run by former CoH1 vet; http://www.smokingguninc.com/
Relic's current finance director (Curtis Terry) was the COO (second in-studio command) of http://www.smokingguninc.com from 2009-2012. Curtis Terry, Cofounder of Relic as Chief Financial Officer (1998-2004) and THQ director of finance 2004-2006.
Then Relic gets acquired by Sega Corporation in 2012 and he leaves smokinggun. https://www.linkedin.com/in/curtisterry/
Other personnel who will be working with the Smoking Gun team include Crispin Hands (Company of Heroes audio director) and Duane Pye (the game's script writer). Smoking Gun's Web site states that the team worked together for a total of seven years, including on the historical real-time strategy Company of Heroes title, and that "Over time, they realised that they shared a vision of what games could be; with Smoking Gun they have come together to build that dream."
If this prediction is true, they will move to new Relic office in 2019 (has plenty of room for a second studio beyond just Relic). My seal of approval;
That being said, as I am talking to you now, we are certainly not planning to move away from COH as a franchise. Also, don't forget that a good portion of the studio is also already hard at work on AOE IV!
Relic Entertainment
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