[DBP] Royal Engineer Doctrine feedback thread

The whole point of the commander? There shouldn't be a linear way any commander forces you to play. If a player wants to make the current fragile UC a command vehicle they should be able to. It's simple risk/reward.

A UC as a command vehicle was OP in the past because A) the recon was free and a no-brainer, and B) it applied the aura to emplacements where it was safe from counter-play. Both have been nerfed, and rightly so. Your preference on how a commander "should" be used isn't a good enough reason to limit player options.

If we lived in a perfect world, it would be pretty cool if you used command vehicle on three different tanks you get three different auras.

Centuar: Buffs infantry
Cromwell: Buffs tank speed/firespeed
Firefly: Buffs anti-tank capabilities

Have you ever played with a command UC and double UKF sniper in teamgame? have you even tested a vickers with command aura?

Yeah, and it never was a problem nor was it used that way in competitive play. If you couldn't kill a UC past the early game, then I'm sure most strategies would give you trouble.

The whole point of the commander? There shouldn't be a linear way any commander forces you to play. If a player wants to make the current fragile UC a command vehicle they should be able to. It's simple risk/reward.

A UC as a command vehicle was OP in the past because A) the recon was free and a no-brainer, and B) it applied the aura to emplacements where it was safe from counter-play. Both have been nerfed, and rightly so. Your preference on how a commander "should" be used isn't a good enough reason to limit player options.

You need the available hosts to be within the same class of opportunity cost in order to decide what aura this unit should give.

If UC is an available host, then command vehicle should get a completely ineffective aura, like the one that Vipper suggested. That's because the cost of UC + Command Aura is too cheap for anything bigger.

Alternatively, yeah. I think it would be OK if the strength of the aura scaled with the strength of the vehicle committed to it.

However, creating 3 different auras for 3 different vehicle classes (UC, AEC and everything else), requires us to get 3 things right at once. However, when we're juggling with 10 commanders at the same time, complexity can be a dangerous enemy.

So, we'll try to optimize the aura for a use-case where people can use it on any medium+ tanks, probably. That's because there's a large variety of expensive tanks to choose from, and that's what CoH1 had after all.

You need the available hosts to be within the same class of opportunity cost in order to decide what aura this unit should give.

If UC is an available host, then command vehicle should get a completely ineffective aura, like the one that Vipper suggested. That's because the cost of UC + Command Aura is too cheap for anything bigger.

Alternatively, yeah. I think it would be OK if the strength of the aura scaled with the strength of the vehicle committed to it.

However, creating 3 different auras for 3 different vehicle classes (UC, AEC and everything else), requires us to get 3 things right at once. However, when we're juggling with 10 commanders at the same time, complexity can be a dangerous enemy.

So, we'll try to optimize the aura for a use-case where people can use it on any medium+ tanks, probably. That's because there's a large variety of expensive tanks to choose from, and that's what CoH1 had after all.

So what if it's cheap to convert a UC into a command vehicle? It is incredibly easy to kill if they use it aggressively to take advantage of the aura. That's the risk/reward.

If I want a command vehicle that can stay in the front lines I'll convert a tank into one.

So what if it's cheap to convert a UC into a command vehicle? It is incredibly easy to kill if they use it aggressively to take advantage of the aura. That's the risk/reward.

If I want a command vehicle that can stay in the front lines I'll convert a tank into one.

Front lines are relative. A command vehicle UC will probably be in the company of a significantly more expensive firefly. No matter how weak the UC, it's still going to be 60-80 range away from the enemy.

Thus, if the UC is re-allowed to be a command vehicle, the vehicle-buffing aura of the effect should be nearly-inexistent, like the aura linked before.

So, we'll try to optimize the aura for a use-case where people can use it on any medium+ tanks, probably. That's because there's a large variety of expensive tanks to choose from, and that's what CoH1 had after all.

Hi Smith. If it's intended use is for medium tanks, wouldn't raising the CP cost to 6-7(Around the time mediums start hitting the field) and reducing the penalties for the command vehicle be more ideal? You won't be able to build a bofars and use stand fast if you need to command vehicle an AEC every game.

wouldn't the worst case be they get an AEC, it survives until 7 VP and gets command vehicled, then proceeds to be out shined by other tanks mid game?

Front lines are relative. A command vehicle UC will probably be in the company of a significantly more expensive firefly. No matter how weak the UC, it's still going to be 60-80 range away from the enemy.

Thus, if the UC is re-allowed to be a command vehicle, the vehicle-buffing aura of the effect should be nearly-inexistent, like the aura linked before.

Alright, since we're theory-crafting now:

If the game is to the point of Fireflies being on the field, then the axis have plenty of indirect fire options to reach the UC with. Not to mention AT guns or AT Infantry counter both and force a micro response, but good luck getting your UC out of dodge with its horrible pathing.

Alright, since we're theory-crafting now:

If the game is to the point of Fireflies being on the field, then the axis have plenty of indirect fire options to reach the UC with. Not to mention AT guns or AT Infantry counter both and force a micro response, but good luck getting your UC out of dodge with its horrible pathing.

UC trademark horrible pathing has been fixed in the mod.

UC trademark horrible pathing has been fixed in the mod.

Pathing so good as to make it an un-counterable aura dispensing death machine? Doubtful.

Interesting how the command Panther and P4 don't have any penalties (other than the P4 having a main gun that shoots only HE) but any UKF command vehicle MUST have penalties. At that point, why not just have a 50 muni loiter plane ability?

Royal Engineers Report Card:

Stand Fast
This ability is now something that frees up your Sappers to do things other than repair emplacements. It is incapable to out-repairing howitzer bombardment, nor can it out-repair incendiary damage. I see it as a good tool to use after you use Brace against a howitzer bombardment. Will not make Sim City as frustrating either.

Command Vehicle
Actually quite cost-effective for what it does, the best CV is probably the AEC. The command vehicle is much more responsive, aura buffs are great, especially now that there are separate buffs for infantry and vehicles. I foresee the +15% penetration buff could work very well with Churchill VIIs. However, the aura feels a little small to me.

Vehicle Crew Repairs
Good changes, frees up your Sappers to do things other than repair vehicles. Is not overpowered when you have a swarm of Cromwells either.

Anti-Building Flame Mortar Support
Very effective against garrisons, reliably destroys smaller garrisons and sets larger, tougher (brick, stone) garrisons alight and destroys them as well. It works to force team weapons to displace as well.

Churchill AVRE
Can no longer fire through (standing) buildings, good change. It can still fire through hedges though, which is very nice. The always-penetrate and always-stun when the round hits a vehicle will make it much stronger against enemy tanks.

However I did find a bug with the AVRE: you cannot target the center of the enemy HQ (tested vs WM), the targeting reticle flicks to one edge or the other, and when you fire the Petard Mortar it always hits the edge of the HQ.

What about replacing stand fast with a special engie call in squad that has a muni based ability which very quickly repairs one structure.

This requires more manpower and micro investment from the brit, while also opening up counterplay (prevent them from repairing).


The speed and cost of the repair can be sufficient that it remains a strong ability. You could have a unit cap of 1 or 2 squads to prevent it being too OP with sim city.

I'd rather have tank trap for the Brits.

Stand fast is pointless as no emplacement can survive. Wasting a few munitions to keep it alive a little longer doesn't make sense in the vast majority of cases. Huge nerf from the original.

Command vehicle feels very meh. AEC is the only acceptable host, Centaurs appear more likely to shoot their own toes off and you'd be mad to waste an expensive tank as a CV. Huge nerf.

Worse though you can't really use it on an AEC because of the extant bug which prevents you from designating a new vehicle once the old one is destroyed. And it isn't worth anything more expensive, in fact I'd question whether it's worth an AEC in current state. What is the aim here? Maybe you can use 2 6 pdrs instead of three? Well I'd prefer 3 anyway for the coverage. And an AEC that can hit something.

As soon as the krauts see a command icon they'll dive for the car, and the aura isn't anywhere near strong enough to make the nerfed FF's a deterrent unless you have 3 of them. Which is too many. Two FF's plus AEC CV dived by 2 panthers, lost easily. Twice.

Cromwells you'd have to field 4, which I tried. Felt slightly weaker than 4 normal Cromwells. Accuracy isn't their problem, it's tinfoil armour and lack of pen. Dive with 4 and you'll almost certainly lose 1, which will be the CV if the Axis are awake.

The Mk7 is actually useful as a command vehicle purely for buffing infantry. It isn't as though it's main gun is much more than decorative anyway. Though the Mk7 and Anvil in general isn't worth it. Heavy engineers only become useful in support of a Churchill command vehicle and with Piats.

Which, yes is one playstyle. And I suspect is Mr Smith's preferred playstyle from previous posts. Seems to me that you've nerfed the commander into the ground and only buffed units that you use and in the ways that you use them. Which is lovely for the rest of us.

I also tried using Vickers in the aura, which was strong, in a 4v4 where I only had to defend a small front. Though as there is no counter to Axis IDF now that the already woeful pit is further nerfed it was predictably easy for the the opposition.

Vehicle repairs are another large nerf. Only one vehicle at a time for most of the cost. Is this the Royal Engineer commander or the 'you don't need RE' commander?

Flame mortars, better than they were I think, though it wasn't an often used ability. I hardly used it previously. Worth ruining the rest of the commander for? Not to mine eyes.

AVRE. Is it even worth calling in? Cost increase and totally nerfed. It was hardly more than a curio in the first place. Didn't try it as a CV as over a minute per shot didn't seem viable.

I must have missed the RE commander being used to win everything in competitive play to see so many well justified and large nerfs... It was a niche and interesting commander which allowed some unique playstyles.

For instance I'd build a troll army of AECs and dive with them, it wasn't a strat you'd see in comp play but was fun. Relied upon the proper vehicle repair though so no go now. Or I'd use the CV to get some utility from 17 pdrs. Again, not a good strat, but an interesting one.

The RE commander allowed lots of such things in a dicking about sort of a way. Unusual strategies or using units which were fundamentally crap just to get some utility out of them. All gone as far as I can tell.

Well unless you like blobbing piats to take down heavy armour, as that is the only thing I can think this commander is now designed for.

I suspect Mr Smith is very happy with his new plaything and I hope you don't take offence if I think you've taken a commander which I really enjoyed and molded it to your, and possibly only your, playstyle.

As with other parts of the patch too I suspect.

"We find that the primary downsides of this commander are poor synergy with the faction, as well as highly-situational abilities. To improve its viability and utility, we have made the following changes:"

From the patch notes.

Whoever wrote that clearly didn't have a clue how the commander was and could be used. How does a long list of nerfs now 'synergise' it with the faction? Ruin it by all means, it's not as though we expect anything else of Lelic, but please save us the management bullshit lingo.

Interesting how the command Panther and P4 don't have any penalties (other than the P4 having a main gun that shoots only HE) but any UKF command vehicle MUST have penalties. At that point, why not just have a 50 muni loiter plane ability?

Another conspiracy theory that does not hold water.
Compare the 3 command vehicles:

PzIV:
CP 9
Gun nerfed compared to standard PzIV
Aura 80% received damage

Command Panther:
CP 11
+10% speed, +20 sight radius to nearby vehicles

Main gun AoE damage 1/0.15/0.05
Command Panther mutually-exclusive with the King Tiger (similar to JT/KT restrictions)
Costs allot more then Panther

Command Vehicle
CP 2

Penalty -50% accuracy +100% reload time modifier.

Command Vehicle Aura

Infantry: +20% accuracy, -20% cooldown, -20% reload
Vehicles: -30% reload, -30% cooldown, +30% accuracy, +15% penetration


"Designate command vehicle" is simply superior.

Is it eck!

Lol, 2CP is completely irrelevant. There is nothing you can put in on at 2CP, it's a hangover from the days when you could tag a UC with it.

If you offered any Brit player over any patch a command Panther over a command vehicle they would rip both of your arms off.

In fact I'm wondering whether you are joking.... Doesn't seem like it but you do get the odd kraut playing this game so have to be lenient with assumptions of sense of humour.

Who knows maybe you saw the cheap toaster UC with a shoot me icon above it and it struck fear into your command panther equipped forces. It's possible.. Very unlikely...

Didn't notice a penetration buff, which is interesting... Maybe even enough to think I haven't given it enough of a chance yet....

Interesting idea though, why not allow the command position on infantry should the player so choose? It no longer buffs emplacements which is rather a large nerf so surely justified....

...
In fact I'm wondering whether you are joking.... Doesn't seem like it but you do get the odd kraut playing this game so have to be lenient with assumptions of sense of humour.
....

Command Panther is Op because of mark target not because of Aura.

It get OP only if it vet up.

""Designate command vehicle" is simply superior. "

Yes I noticed that you missed out the aura buffs with vet. + 20% accuracy. -20% reload, +5 range if the wiki is accurate.

I guess you weren't joking....

Which is funny!

If you are a kraut then give yourself a pat on the back.

""Designate command vehicle" is simply superior. "

Yes I noticed that you missed out the aura buffs with vet. + 20% accuracy. -20% reload, +5 range if the wiki is accurate.
...

Panther's aura does get better with veterancy (and actually all aura should work this way).

The Panther has a XP value of 3.120 which means that it needs allot of time to vet and increase the effectiveness of the aura and only effect infantry at vet 5.

Now compare the auras, the UKF aura gives better stats (unless vet 5), is available earlier, does not need XP.

(Pls try not to make this personal.)