Need some OKW assistance

https://www.coh2.org/replay/65395/bad-loss-on-langre-with-op-kw

Hey all, OKW, even with it's reputation as one of the easier factions, is pretty far and away my worst faction. This game's only 25 minutes and I believe it shows my current limitations in coh2.

Will give it a shot

What you already want to know? I can easily watch it but I need at last things that I should focus on. You are not sure about build, your micro or choices late in game?

What you already want to know? I can easily watch it but I need at last things that I should focus on. You are not sure about build, your micro or choices late in game?

Hey Frost, if you still are down to do so I would love help with the OKW mid and late game. I think I understand the fundamental infantry micro and objectives early game but I have trouble understanding how OKW game flow works.

When is OKW strong and at what point can I start pushing the initiative?

Okay I finally watched your replay, and got some hints for your play.

Your early game build was alright. You didn't need that Luchs, which is most effective on big, open maps where you can prevent enemy harassing you or vice versa. But it's overall not a big mistake and sometimes even works. The problem with your BO is you didn't have answer to his indirect fire. He had one 120mm, double ZiS-3 (he used barrages quite well and frequently) and one Su-76M. You could answer that in two ways:

1.) Most popular, very effective when you manage it well - LeIG's 18. One or two could mess up with his support weapons which he had a lot. Just put it around your T4 (which was pretty risky built, I'd build it bit closer to base or behind the house near your VP with fuel to prevent opponent harass you) and order to fire to his ZiS's and HM's. You could even take sd.kfz 251 with infrared searchlight for free recon for your indirect options, which is uncommon (Jove used that a lot) but it's still very effective.

2.) When you went T2 - Stukas zu Fuss. I know it's pretty random how it deals with infantry. Sometimes it wipes AT gun on one rocket, sometimes it kills only one model. It's more difficult to use but in my opinion, you could go for that to at least a slightly counter to his indirect weapons.

Later you went Panzer IV, which as you saw, weren't that effective due his anti tank supremacy. And even that you went few times aggressive with that without infantry - it couldn't end well for you and your Panzers.

Not sure why you went this doctrine early on. You used only an artillery from that and only one. And grenades. I don't think it helped you. Better off you went Elite Panzer for Sturmtiger which could end your struggle on your way or Spec Ops for overall better support your troops. Also, you should consider build elite infantry, in that case Obersoldatens, especially if you had only conscripts to deal with.

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About your micro - in early, against conscripts you should keep the distance - the best for that fight is mid and long range. In other cases - close and point blank conscripts will have an advantage. Situation becomes different when you upgrade Sturmgewehrs 44, but until that - better off keep distance and don't move your unit towards stationary enemy because you will lose 1-2 models before reaching an objective and then you will be forced to pull back which is rather not welcome option.
Overall OKW has an option to be aggressive or defensive. The best chance you got at the start since you have best starting unit followed by light vehicle that can be really quickly repaired or volks that can build green cover. Just keep those hints from above and you will be alright.

Thanks for the advice frost. So Med Truck as OKW is still used for the maps that favor it? I just kind of assumed that Luchs rush was the overpowering dominant meta of the time but langre seems well suited to a double LeIG setup in hindsight.

Either way having committed to the luchs I think I was too reluctant to setup a med truck and spend the fuel once i started seeing mass team weapons.

You should think and play in terms of counters if enemy has something that you can't counter directly with your current forces, no longer "it'll work out somehow" because as you can see in that case, it doesn't work.

Overall this is how people play meta. If you play meta, you are excepting meta from opponent as well. This case he went completely "teamgames mode on" and ruin your game because you blindly went to things you didn't need to.

I hope your next games will led to improve yourself as well as your rank

Cheers, I'll close it at that then. Appreciate the time.

Super late, but I felt I had to pitch in.

Luchs builds are technically not the strongest builds. Assuming a completely well rounded okw player, and averaging performance across all possible situations, matchups, maps, enemy builds, and game states, a t1 (battlegroup) build is actually a better.

The thing is, a lot of these maps where a leig is favorable to a luchs are maps that you would want to ban anyway. Also, all of the enemy builds that you want want a leig over a luchs against are non meta and, frankly, just bad. Finally, some players use light vehicles better than others and are able to get more out of a luchs.

Most of the community parrots the idea that the luchs is OP without actually understanding why its OP/when its OP, leading some players to build a luchs without even understanding why theyre building it.

I haven't watched the replay, but Frost mentioned that your sov opponent had double zis. The luchs is meta and OP against soviets right now because the only really viable soviet build has no dedicated AT, but your opponent didnt go that build.

Knowing WHICH units are good really doesn't help you that much. It's all about knowing WHY a given unit is good.

Sorry, if there's anything in my post I didn't explain properly. If there's anything I typed that didn't make sense, you can ask for clarification.

Super late, but I felt I had to pitch in.

Luchs builds are technically not the strongest builds. Assuming a completely well rounded okw player, and averaging performance across all possible situations, matchups, maps, enemy builds, and game states, a t1 (battlegroup) build is actually a better.

The thing is, a lot of these maps where a leig is favorable to a luchs are maps that you would want to ban anyway. Also, all of the enemy builds that you want want a leig over a luchs against are non meta and, frankly, just bad. Finally, some players use light vehicles better than others and are able to get more out of a luchs.

Most of the community parrots the idea that the luchs is OP without actually understanding why its OP/when its OP, leading some players to build a luchs without even understanding why theyre building it.

I haven't watched the replay, but Frost mentioned that your sov opponent had double zis. The luchs is meta and OP against soviets right now because the only really viable soviet build has no dedicated AT, but your opponent didnt go that build.

Knowing WHICH units are good really doesn't help you that much. It's all about knowing WHY a given unit is good.

Sorry, if there's anything in my post I didn't explain properly. If there's anything I typed that didn't make sense, you can ask for clarification.

I suppose it is not really in my place, but if OP dosen't mind then I would like you to elaborate a bit on this feedback.

It seems to me that you are overall saying that t1 us better on most maps, but seeing how the player should have already vetoed those maps, then the t2 is actually better. Assuming a player has vetoed these maps (urban maps I assume?) would this not make t2 better by default?

You then go on to saying that it is better vs the current soviet meta as it has no dedicated AT, but does this mean that against any other faction or a t2 soviet the battlegroup t1 is generally better?

Just to make this a bit more understandable to laymen, could you perhaps give some overall guidelines for teching spread out on factions?

It could be something like:
Vs Soviet you should geneally go t2 if you know the oppoenent has gone t1.
Vs. Brits you should go t2 if..
Vs USF you should go t2 if..

Furhter more should this choice be based primarily on ISG vs. luchs or are there other units that are of equal consideration in the respective builds at the time of deployment (~5 mins into the game)?

I suppose it is not really in my place, but if OP dosen't mind then I would like you to elaborate a bit on this feedback.

It seems to me that you are overall saying that t1 us better on most maps, but seeing how the player should have already vetoed those maps, then the t2 is actually better. Assuming a player has vetoed these maps (urban maps I assume?) would this not make t2 better by default?

You then go on to saying that it is better vs the current soviet meta as it has no dedicated AT, but does this mean that against any other faction or a t2 soviet the battlegroup t1 is generally better?

Just to make this a bit more understandable to laymen, could you perhaps give some overall guidelines for teching spread out on factions?

It could be something like:
Vs Soviet you should geneally go t2 if you know the oppoenent has gone t1.
Vs. Brits you should go t2 if..
Vs USF you should go t2 if..

Furhter more should this choice be based primarily on ISG vs. luchs or are there other units that are of equal consideration in the respective builds at the time of deployment (~5 mins into the game)?

Great questions. Also, I never knew you became a strategist. That said, I'm glad you did and know you'll do excellent work for this community.

So something I have to address before answering your questions: I ALWAYS go luchs. The reason why is that I'm good at light vehicle play, great in the early game, bad at infantry play, bad at team weapon play, and bad in the late game (to show you how this translates to other aspects: i always go either a stuart or m20 when i play usf because i need light vehicles so much; i play every single faction heavily mechanized. also, I probably average 1 raketen every 5 games as okw because my team weapon positioning is so bad). The luchs caters towards all of these things. This would be the reason why I not only said averaged across all maps/factions/etc., but I also said a completely well rounded player.

Against t2, the battlegroup is probably better, yes. The luchs has to deal with AT guns, cons with sprint + snares, cheap reinforce on those cons so its harder to bleed them, and possibly guards. This is more than enough to hold off until a t70 or su76 comes; you just won't get enough value out of the luchs.

You have to understand, what I said was very much only on the plane of theory and not practice. In practice, builds that are decent against the luchs are so uncommon and/or so bad that you hardly see them.

That said:

Sov:
Luchs if they go T1, consider battlegroup if T2 (especially if they have guards). The luchs has to deal with everything i stated above if its a T2 from the soviet player. ISGs do well against maxims. Not going mechanized also means you can get your flak HQ quicker and get obers out quicker. Obers will farm guards for free vet and can run up to a maxim from the front and deathloop them into a wipe.


USF:
Luchs against lieutenant, but you can get screwed over if he zooks all of his squads then spams .50s; if you know your opponent does .50 spam, then isgs are probably better. Against captain, luchs if you're ahead or even, isgs if youre behind. Armor company can punish mechanized builds heavily unless you go command panther or have excellent puma micro. If you're behind against captain, the opponent will have enough space to get his ambulance and zooks/stuart/at guns. Going T1 means you can have medics of your own, and means you can get quicker mediums and obers. Mediums are essential against armor company, and obers are your best shot against double BAR riflemen.


UKF:
The luchs does alright against even the aec just because going aec slows their tech and UKF doesn't have snares. However, if the UKF player goes trench spam or special weapons AT sections, isgs are better. AT sections have an insane snare range (20) and seriously threaten a luchs. Add to that you may be dealing with an AT gun and the luchs won't have as much of an impact. Furthermore, an infantry section in a trench can live long enough against a luchs for AT sections to make their way over and force off the luchs; not to mention that AT sections in a trench will easily 1v1 a luchs. Having ISGs mean that you can force your enemy out of trenches (and destroy them) without having to use flame nades every engagement. Also, you'll have to deal with a croc at 13 cp if theyre special weapons, so you either need to ostwind spam to a victory before then, go spec ops and get a command panther, or have quick teching to counter it. Going t1 means that you can get a quicker t4, and therefore quicker/more medium tanks to counter the crocodile.

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It is always a joy to read your well-analyzed and concise points on the game.

Yes I was recently promoted to strategist putting me in good company of generally much better players

I try to fill the role of giving feedback to people on level 10 and below, as it is only little more than a year ago that I was there myself and thus might be able to better identify with their problems and frustrations.

Along this line of thinking I have also initiated the early stages of writing a guide with the specific purpose of helping players reach level 10 by knowing how to overcome a lack of great micro and knowing which strategies and weapons that are disproportionately effective on lower skill levels (mines would be an obvious example of this, as almost nobody below lvl 10 consistently get sweepers).