Conscripts need to be balanced

Are you like 12?

Are you kidding me right now? You come here biased as shit to troll the topic and when you get called out on it you troll even more? gtfo go troll somwhere else

I had an interesting thought the other day; What if you could upgrade Vet3 cons to either shocks or guards?

I feel cons are quite useful early game, its just that they don't scale into the late game. Price the upgrade appropriately, maybe translate some of the vet from the cons to the upgraded unit such that there would be an advantage to just calling them in.

I had an interesting thought the other day; What if you could upgrade Vet3 cons to either shocks or guards?

I feel cons are quite useful early game, its just that they don't scale into the late game. Price the upgrade appropriately, maybe translate some of the vet from the cons to the upgraded unit such that there would be an advantage to just calling them in.

That would be crazy op. Scaling ok. But turning basic infantry into elite infantry at vet 3 is batshit crazy. ^^ I do appreciate new ideas but you are loco my friend

That would be crazy op. Scaling ok. But turning basic infantry into elite infantry at vet 3 is batshit crazy. ^^ I do appreciate new ideas but you are loco my friend

I can appreciate the fact that you might not like the idea, however; I'm not sure how you can dismiss a concept as "Batshit crazy" after pondering it for less than 1 minute. Maybe, I was not clear enough in explaining it.

I'm suggesting that an individual conscript that has reached vet3 could be upgraded into a different class. That's kind of what guards were in real life; veteran units that were awarded the title based on performance. This would not be automatic, a player would have to choose to do this and would have to pay for it.

I am not suggesting that guards or shocks could be built instead of conscripts or that you could upgrade any other unit other than that 1 unit that had reached the vet requirements.

It typically takes +10mins to reach vet 3 with a conscript which is well past the CP requirements to call in either shocks/guards. From a timing point of view a guard/shock units arrival would be no different than calling one in.

If it means that in the late game, all your mainline infantry is something other than conscripts, well that's kind of what ends up happening now.

In my humble opinion, the Ost-soviet early game is great; conscripts do just fine. The OKW matchup can be problematic, however thats more to do with the OKW not conscripts.

That being said, maybe I am not seeing something. Why do you think that this is not a viable concept?

I had an interesting thought the other day; What if you could upgrade Vet3 cons to either shocks or guards?

I feel cons are quite useful early game, its just that they don't scale into the late game. Price the upgrade appropriately, maybe translate some of the vet from the cons to the upgraded unit such that there would be an advantage to just calling them in.

Reminds me of how penal battalions would be replaced as a build able squad when you chose a commander with guards or shocks.

A conscript performance upgrade tied to veterancy may not be so crazy an idea, though. Interesting enough to be worth testing, were there only a platform in which balance ideas could be tried and tested.

And I'm not going to comment further because most of this thread is invisworthy at this point.

What? Twice the damage means 320 x 2 = 640 not 480. Let me repeat myself for those of an IQ of a retarded chimp with a brain tumor having a stroke who accidentaly got hit on the head with a big rock.

A 1v1 scenario
- every skirmish starts in axis favored circumstances at long range
- both grens and volks get 82% more dmg output at long range
- not always do you have a chance to close the distance safely (road in between or a river with negative cover)
- while you close the distance axis are most probably in green cover safely having any incoming dps signicantly lowered, have best possible accuracy and reload time
- while you close the distance allied unit has no cover (or negative cover), is on the move making its reload speed slower and accuracy basically dogshit
- when you actually do get up close your unit has most probably lost a model already so its actually not 320 vs 480 but 320 vs 400 or even less (its even worse when grens have lmg)
- cons dmg with one less model at close range is 17,136 (around 400 hp) vs 24,88 (around 320 hp)

Do you now understand that hp doesnt really matter if you have no dmg output or is your iq even lower than that? Now on the other hand if a unit without a model would still dish out a higher dps at close range then it woul be fair. Because you could take the risk of closing in the distance and win the engagement. Such a unit exists and its called penals but it also costs 300 mp not 240mp. But in the upcoming patch balance fuckboy team is going to nerf penals 'on the move' accuracy instead of their long range dps to make your closing the distance riskier than before.

Btw how big of a fucking axis fanboy does one have to be to never allow the game to get even slightly balanced?

Not all engagements start at long range. If your unit needs to be at close range to be more effective (or in cons' case, in order to lower the dps difference and make it more equal), then you need to avoid long sight lines. Acting like a unit HAS to position itself such that it always engages in max range fights is idiotic and nothing but a l2p issue on most viable/tournament maps (maps like halbe, however, are designed such that max range engagements are mostly unavoidable though).

Also, his argument that units have to retreat when they reach two models is more or less valid, and your argument that "grens would have done so much more damage by then," blatantly ignores the dps numbers you just provided. Just admit that you didn't read the post before you responded to it, acted like an asshole, and made a fool of yourself. Just move on to making actual arguments instead of resorting to personal attacks.

Anyway, you act like cons HAVE to be able to win vs unupgraded grenadiers and unupgraded volks. Thats just not how faction balance works. What if i compared the okw mg34 to even the maxim? The maxim has 2 extra men, and twice the far dps of the mg34 all while coming out earlier and only costing 30 more manpower. Does that mean the mg34 needs a buff. What about when i compare it to the vickers which has twice the far dps and 3 times the point blank dps? The reason why this is relatively balanced overall is because okw have the stronger core infantry, but the weaker team weapons. Arguing that cons should be able to hold their own vs volks is conceptually a bad idea as long as okw are balanced around the idea that their infantry gets to be strong because their team weapons are weak.

Side note: your close range dps for upgraded volks isnt correct as far as im aware. If i'm correct, its much lower.

A few other things:
Acting like an asshole is the quickest way to let everyone know to ignore you. Personally attacking other people usually looks pretty desperate.
Being a higher rank in 1v1s doesn't automatically make you correct.
Acting like rank 87 in 1v1s is a high rank is...anyway, i guess you're welcome to feel like rank 87 is good.

Less relevant but:
You said that balance discussions/threads should be rank restricted so that only people who actually know what they're talking about could post. As far as I'm concerned, that cutoff should be rank 30 or better to achieve its goal, and you wouldn't even be a part of those balance discussions.

Less relevant but:
You said that balance discussions/threads should be rank restricted so that only people who actually know what they're talking about could post. As far as I'm concerned, that cutoff should be rank 30 or better to achieve its goal, and you wouldn't even be a part of those balance discussions.

I already was top 30, I can get back there, can you? Show your playercard.

I already was top 30, I can get back there, can you? Show your playercard.

Again, you can't just dismiss arguments based solely on player rank.

Anyway, you act like cons HAVE to be able to win vs unupgraded grenadiers and unupgraded volks. Thats just not how faction balance works. What if i compared the okw mg34 to even the maxim? The maxim has 2 extra men, and twice the far dps of the mg34 all while coming out earlier and only costing 30 more manpower. Does that mean the mg34 needs a buff. What about when i compare it to the vickers which has twice the far dps and 3 times the point blank dps?

Mg34 main job is not to deal dmg but to suppress and block access to an area for enemy infantry. So what you need is good arc of fire and suppression. Dps in case of mg has secondary value at most. That means that mg34 is exactly what its supposed to do. Maxim on the other hand has neither the suppression nor arc of fire to reliably hold off axis infantry. Number of models doesnt really matter when taken into account long range weapon profile of axis infantry. Rifle nades and range of incediary nades.

The reason why this is relatively balanced overall is because okw have the stronger core infantry, but the weaker team weapons. Arguing that cons should be able to hold their own vs volks is conceptually a bad idea as long as okw are balanced around the idea that their infantry gets to be strong because their team weapons are weak.

Soviets have weak both infantry and weapon teams xD and I wouldnt call OKW weapon teams weak. MG34 explained above. ISG? weak? are you kidding me? rakketten with great armor penetration is bad? And to be frank OKW has much more going for them then just overpowered infantry, up until the patch goes live they still have FRP. Luchs performs great, flak too, stuka is the best non doc arty in the game, they get access to monster tanks during late game stage of the game. Only thing Im asking is for cons to be more balanced and you dont even wanna allow something as small as that.

Side note: your close range dps for upgraded volks isnt correct as far as im aware. If i'm correct, its much lower.

oh rly, its lower but you dont know exactly you just 'feel like it' or at least want to disagree to block the topic

Again, you can't just dismiss arguments based solely on player rank.

Yes I can, because the higher rank you are able to achieve with every faction means that you are more experienced, understand balance of all the factions better or are just plainly more intelligent than others. Its a strong correlate of better game understanding. Now if on the other hand you play only one faction or cant reach high rank it means that either you dont understand the game balance, you have not gathered enough experience, you are not interested in balancing the game because you want to play one faction or side only or you are just plain stupid.

Mg34 main job is not to deal dmg but to suppress and block access to an area for enemy infantry. So what you need is good arc of fire and suppression. Dps in case of mg has secondary value at most. That means that mg34 is exactly what its supposed to do. Maxim on the other hand has neither the suppression nor arc of fire to reliably hold off axis infantry. Number of models doesnt really matter when taken into account long range weapon profile of axis infantry. Rifle nades and range of incediary nades.



Soviets have weak both infantry and weapon teams xD and I wouldnt call OKW weapon teams weak. MG34 explained above. ISG? weak? are you kidding me? rakketten with great armor penetration is bad? And to be frank OKW has much more going for them then just overpowered infantry, up until the patch goes live they still have FRP. Luchs performs great, flak too, stuka is the best non doc arty in the game, they get access to monster tanks during late game stage of the game. Only thing Im asking is for cons to be more balanced and you dont even wanna allow something as small as that.



oh rly, its lower but you dont know exactly you just 'feel like it' or at least want to disagree to block the topic

Yeah, the mg34 does its job (i wasnt arguing otherwise), and dps isnt quite as important, but you still didnt explain how the mg34 is stronger than the maxim... also, number of models is specifically important BECAUSE of rifle nades and incendiary nades. Low model squads are made similarly durable through received accuracy but get no such compensation against explosions/aoe. Again, large squads are specifically an advantage against this.

You can't just say that all a support weapon needs to do is fulfill its role (you more or less made the mg34s damage doesnt matter as long as it fills its role and suppresses), then later list two support weapons that are the worst at fulfilling their role and then act like fulfilling a role isnt important. The ISG has poor aoe and doesnt do much damage to infantry in garrisons (garrison clearing being one of its main roles, though incendiary nades mostly make up for that). The raketen has poor range and terrible survivability against explosions (shooting at tanks from far away, and not getting instawiped by them in return being its main role), though youre right that the high penetration is really nice, at least when it doesnt hit the ground on even slightly uneven terrain or get its shot blocked by a fence in situations where every other at gun would get a clean shot off.


http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=volksgrenadier_squad_mp

The stats provided on this website were basically consistent with all of the DPS numbers you provided, except for the volks stg upgrade. Since our sources differed, one of our sources was wrong, and I didnt want to concretely state that yours was the one thats wrong since it could just as easily be mine thats wrong. Still, don't let any of this stop your from acting condescending and ignoring solid arguments.

Yes I can, because the higher rank you are able to achieve with every faction means that you are more experienced, understand balance of all the factions better or are just plainly more intelligent than others. Its a strong correlate of better game understanding. Now if on the other hand you play only one faction or cant reach high rank it means that either you dont understand the game balance, you have not gathered enough experience, you are not interested in balancing the game because you want to play one faction or side only or you are just plain stupid.

Again, thats still not enough to dismiss another persons argument alone. Anyway, if you believe in those words so much, then why are you even trying to argue with me? I figured I wouldnt need to link my playercard since you can already see my ranks from this very page.

For someone who was asking me for 1v1 help only about a week ago, you sure are astoundingly condescending to me now.

Jae For Jett, your playercard is probably hidden, theres an option in the profile somewhere to show it, though google shows it as well.

Jae For Jett, your playercard is probably hidden, theres an option in the profile somewhere to show it, though google shows it as well.

Like I said, just check the front page (or even this page) if you want to see my relevant ranks.

Yeah, the mg34 does its job (i wasnt arguing otherwise), and dps isnt quite as important, but you still didnt explain how the mg34 is stronger than the maxim... also, number of models is specifically important BECAUSE of rifle nades and incendiary nades. Low model squads are made similarly durable through received accuracy but get no such compensation against explosions/aoe. Again, large squads are specifically an advantage against this.

Its better because it serves its main purpose better through sheer stats: better sight radius, range of fire, arc of fire, suppression stats but also thanks to indirect factor like the enemy ability to counter it. Specifically slow throwing speed on molotovs, basically no range on penal satchels. When in comparison rifle nades and incediary nades have huge range, lava nades also have literally fastest wind up time so its easier for axis to nade a maxim also long range weapon profile allows axis player to finish off a maxim after nading it.

You can't just say that all a support weapon needs to do is fulfill its role (you more or less made the mg34s damage doesnt matter as long as it fills its role and suppresses), then later list two support weapons that are the worst at fulfilling their role and then act like fulfilling a role isnt important. The ISG has poor aoe and doesnt do much damage to infantry in garrisons (garrison clearing being one of its main roles, though incendiary nades mostly make up for that). The raketen has poor range and terrible survivability against explosions (shooting at tanks from far away, and not getting instawiped by them in return being its main role), though youre right that the high penetration is really nice, at least when it doesnt hit the ground on even slightly uneven terrain or get its shot blocked by a fence in situations where every other at gun would get a clean shot off.

ISG is getting reworked in the upcoming patch to be less braindead friendly. It serves its purpose as support gun quite alright. I would probably rather give okw a normal so it would make it easier to flank it for allied tanks but they have stealth at gun with shorter range. Other than range and no gun crew cover the weapon is fine. Its not the best okw unit, might even be the worst but I would say its worse than allied counterpart. Its different because it trades of range for stealth. Im always happy whenever I get my hands on raketten because of its high armor pen.

The stats provided on this website were basically consistent with all of the DPS numbers you provided, except for the volks stg upgrade. Since our sources differed, one of our sources was wrong, and I didnt want to concretely state that yours was the one thats wrong since it could just as easily be mine thats wrong. Still, don't let any of this stop your from acting condescending and ignoring solid arguments.

Holy fuck sorry my bad its not 44 its 41. I admit that was a mistake on my part. ITS STILL HIGH AS FUCK for 60 muni and no upgrade xD basically comparable with double bars costing 120 muni and upgrade xD

Pls go away little troll. Show me your playercard to validate your point of view so at least I can treat you seriously.

Pls go away little troll. Show me your playercard to validate your point of view so at least I can treat you seriously.

You could refer the top 10 leaderboards conveniently to your right.

Its better because it serves its main purpose better through sheer stats: better sight radius, range of fire, arc of fire, suppression stats but also thanks to indirect factor like the enemy ability to counter it. Specifically slow throwing speed on molotovs, basically no range on penal satchels. When in comparison rifle nades and incediary nades have huge range, lava nades also have literally fastest wind up time so its easier for axis to nade a maxim also long range weapon profile allows axis player to finish off a maxim after nading it.



ISG is getting reworked in the upcoming patch to be less braindead friendly. It serves its purpose as support gun quite alright. I would probably rather give okw a normal so it would make it easier to flank it for allied tanks but they have stealth at gun with shorter range. Other than range and no gun crew cover the weapon is fine. Its not the best okw unit, might even be the worst but I would say its worse than allied counterpart. Its different because it trades of range for stealth. Im always happy whenever I get my hands on raketten because of its high armor pen.



Holy fuck sorry my bad its not 44 its 41. I admit that was a mistake on my part. ITS STILL HIGH AS FUCK for 60 muni and no upgrade xD basically comparable with double bars costing 120 muni and upgrade xD

Pls go away little troll. Show me your playercard to validate your point of view so at least I can treat you seriously.

According to the source I provided, the dps should be 31. If you have a source that says 41, please provide it.

Again. If you can't even be bothered to look at the top 10 ladder ranks for usf and okw provided on the right side bar of this very page, then you wouldnt be bothered to click a link to my playercard even if I provided it.

Quick edit: the mg34 has the same sight radius and same range as the maxim and literally every other hmg in this game...guessing we're making up stats now though

According to the source I provided, the dps should be 31. If you have a source that says 41, please provide it.

Again. If you can't even be bothered to look at the top 10 ladder ranks for usf and okw provided on the right side bar of this very page, then you wouldnt be bothered to click a link to my playercard even if I provided it.

Quick edit: the mg34 has the same sight radius and same range as the maxim and literally every other hmg in this game...guessing we're making up stats now though

Yeah the fact that you have over 1k games with OKW and 27 games with UKF has literally no influence over your opinions. xD Im happy that you at least played some USF.

Yeah the fact that you have over 1k games with OKW and 27 games with UKF has literally no influence over your opinions. xD Im happy that you at least played some USF.

Yeah, turns out I enjoy playing some factions more than others. Anyway, time for you to conveniently act like rank doesn't matter whatsoever now.

For reference, 11 of 27 those games were within the last few days. I really find myself taking an increased liking to brits.