The Penal Problem

Often wipe multiple squads with satchels? I cant remember ever having wiped more than one squad with satchels in about 1100h COH2. You need to be sloppy with your micro in order to loose infantry to satchels. MG´s and AT-guns are a bit more tricky but even them should not get wiped by satchels if you have a decent level of micro.

On the other hand Volks incendiary grenades are very good because they deny garrions/cover and have no fuse timer. They are also very good vs. mg´s and at-guns. They are everything but weak.

Satchels vs tanks and light vehicles also require your opponent to have bad micro. A well microed tank/vehicle is never going to get satcheld unless it has engine crit.

Incendiary grenades have their uses, but they seem slightly overpriced and have virtually no use against infantry who are not garrisoned.

Ok, it's rare that multiple squads are wiped, but they do have the potential to do so, and you will often see multiple squads crippled by a lucky satchel. Satchels, as someone else here has pointed out, are also very versatile, being useful against vehicles and structures also. I'm just saying they should be increased, to, say, 50-60 munitions?

- Honored Penal buff, before the patch they were one of the worst infantry units (only the flamethrower was good)
- conscripts always sucked
- undeserved Maxim nerf

Players pushed to spam the Penal, because they have no other alternative. I'm really surprised: everyone is spamming, but everyone are crying about what spam is bad. This game is built on spam, and combined arms operations require more skill and less profit.

Couldn't agree more. When I read the patch notes and saw the Maxim nerf, I was confused, 'cos from my perspective as an Axis main, the Maxim was already pretty crappy. It's only buff was an increasing of the field of fire... which actually, was the Maxim's main weakness imo. Take the Vickers, for example... near impossible to avoid its cone of fire unless you do an uberflank and come up from behind.

Luchs range > penals PTRS range

If you kite penals with your luch, they will never ever damage you. And even if you get too close, and the actually start aiming, just quickly reverse back. PTRS aiming time is so long, that you should be able to evade them, even if they start targeting you

Oh, please. An interesting suggestion, but kiting is only really effective against casemate armour if you are circling it. I presume what you mean is reversing such that you are always on the edge of the Luchs' range, but outside the Penals' range. The problem with that, is that it's easy enough to just move the Penals back a little, inside the range of say a Zis gun. Early armour is penned easily and died hard to Zis guns, as would be expected. I can't see this tactic working against any competent player.

My opinion on the optimal solution to the Penal Problem

It seems to be that the best solution would be to moderately nerf Penals' accuracy, while also improving their vet buffs (to the point where they can actually become quite a bit better than fresh Penals in the current patch). Conscripts could simultaneously be buffed, though I think the best way to do this would be to reduce their cost subtly, to reflect that they are predominately an early-game unit (though perhaps they could be given vet buffs which bring them closer to Penals, so they're not a waste of space if they survive to the late-game).

The Maxim could perhaps use a slight buff, but not too much, since it's still a capable MG in the current patch.

This solution would enable Penals to retain some utility early game, and attain potency late game, without making SU players feel like the only solution is Penal spamming. It would also actually bring Penals in-line with the rest of the infantry in this game, 'cos sorry to say it, but in their current state they are overpowered.

Incendiary grenades have their uses, but they seem slightly overpriced and have virtually no use against infantry who are not garrisoned.

Ok, it's rare that multiple squads are wiped, but they do have the potential to do so, and you will often see multiple squads crippled by a lucky satchel. Satchels, as someone else here has pointed out, are also very versatile, being useful against vehicles and structures also. I'm just saying they should be increased, to, say, 50-60 munitions?



Couldn't agree more. When I read the patch notes and saw the Maxim nerf, I was confused, 'cos from my perspective as an Axis main, the Maxim was already pretty crappy. It's only buff was an increasing of the field of fire... which actually, was the Maxim's main weakness imo. Take the Vickers, for example... near impossible to avoid its cone of fire unless you do an uberflank and come up from behind.



Oh, please. An interesting suggestion, but kiting is only really effective against casemate armour if you are circling it. I presume what you mean is reversing such that you are always on the edge of the Luchs' range, but outside the Penals' range. The problem with that, is that it's easy enough to just move the Penals back a little, inside the range of say a Zis gun. Early armour is penned easily and died hard to Zis guns, as would be expected. I can't see this tactic working against any competent player.

Zis gun costs another 320mp + 160 mp of building tier2.

This together is 480mp and also 300mp of 1 penal squad, that is now crippled, thanks to the PTRS, he build.

Overcome him with your infantry then, you´ve got clear number advantage. Force the zis to move with clever volks flank, then come in with the luchs

Incendiary grenades have their uses, but they seem slightly overpriced and have virtually no use against infantry who are not garrisoned.

What? They are super useful in any situation because they deny your opponent cover which is usually enough to decide any somewhat balanced infantry engagement. i.e. volks battle it out with brit infantry sections who are behind green/yellow cover. You throw a nade to the cover and they are forced to move and lose since they dont have cover anymore.

Ok, it's rare that multiple squads are wiped, but they do have the potential to do so, and you will often see multiple squads crippled by a lucky satchel. Satchels, as someone else here has pointed out, are also very versatile, being useful against vehicles and structures also. I'm just saying they should be increased, to, say, 50-60 munitions?

I think their price is just about right.

Couldn't agree more. When I read the patch notes and saw the Maxim nerf, I was confused, 'cos from my perspective as an Axis main, the Maxim was already pretty crappy. It's only buff was an increasing of the field of fire... which actually, was the Maxim's main weakness imo. Take the Vickers, for example... near impossible to avoid its cone of fire unless you do an uberflank and come up from behind.

I dont really understand what you are trying to say. The pre-GCS patch Maxim was amazing because of fast set-up time and very good surpression. That allowed Maxims to be offensive and act almost like mainline infantry. Vickers are limited to defensive tasks. After GCS patch Maxims turned to shit because of bad surpression, slow set-up and increased reinforcment costs. These changes made Maxims basically useless. PLus the fact that Maxims are still 260MP and locked behind T2 makes them basically a joke compared to any other MG. I would go as far as saying that the Maxim went from best to worst MG within one patch.

The Maxim could perhaps use a slight buff, but not too much, since it's still a capable MG in the current patch.

It needs a major buff. Current Maxims are useless. Take infantry run straight at it throw nade and Maxim is forced to retreat.

What? They are super useful in any situation because they deny your opponent cover which is usually enough to decide any somewhat balanced infantry engagement. i.e. volks battle it out with brit infantry sections who are behind green/yellow cover. You throw a nade to the cover and they are forced to move and lose since they dont have cover anymore.

Useful, yes, but other factions' grenades accomplish this as well as potentially crippling entire squads.

I think their price is just about right.

Kidding? Satchel != bundled grenade, yet both are 45 muni.

I dont really understand what you are trying to say. The pre-GCS patch Maxim was amazing because of fast set-up time and very good surpression. That allowed Maxims to be offensive and act almost like mainline infantry. Vickers are limited to defensive tasks. After GCS patch Maxims turned to shit because of bad surpression, slow set-up and increased reinforcment costs. These changes made Maxims basically useless. PLus the fact that Maxims are still 260MP and locked behind T2 makes them basically a joke compared to any other MG. I would go as far as saying that the Maxim went from best to worst MG within one patch.

It needs a major buff. Current Maxims are useless. Take infantry run straight at it throw nade and Maxim is forced to retreat.

Only when spammed. Their narrow line of fire made them easily flanked. I never had a problem with the Maxim... though, perhaps others did.

And if you think it's so easy to charge straight at a Maxim, why don't you try it? (clue: it's not)

Overcome him with your infantry then, you´ve got clear number advantage. Force the zis to move with clever volks flank, then come in with the luchs

Interesting hypothesis, but you seem to have forgotten the very point of this thread. How do you get the Volks past the Penals? You don't.

I didn't see any problem with penals, the only problem is "penals always" , cause of a not viable soviet tier 2.

Interesting hypothesis, but you seem to have forgotten the very point of this thread. How do you get the Volks past the Penals? You don't.

You ignored the part of your numerous superiority. If he spents 480 MP on zis and 300 MP on cripples petals, you should have 2 more fighting squads than him, so getting through the few penalty shouldn't be a problem.

If you don't believe me, let's play 1v1 game, you Soviet player, me OKW player and go Zis gun while I go luchs. GL

You ignored the part of your numerous superiority. If he spents 480 MP on zis and 300 MP on cripples petals, you should have 2 more fighting squads than him, so getting through the few penalty shouldn't be a problem.

If you don't believe me, let's play 1v1 game, you Soviet player, me OKW player and go Zis gun while I go luchs. GL

Luchs is not free...

Zis is 480 MP plus 160 MP and 20 fuel. Total: 640 MP, 20 fuel.

Luchs is 265 MP and 60 fuel, plus 200 MP and 50 fuel for the structure. Total: 465 MP, 110 fuel.

The difference: 175 MP. Not enough even for a single Volksgrenadier squad. What numerical superiority? Even if it were enough for one additional Volksgrenadier squad, the Penals would still win. If you had the munitions, you could certainly deal some pain with a 60 muni Zis barrage (I actually think the cost of the Zis barrage should have both its cost and duration halved, since it does feel fairly weak versus infantry and it's easy to move infantry when you notice a Zis barrage, but I suppose it's meant to be used against buildings).

Penal problem is about shity cons and useless t2. Rebalancing penals will not solve the problem, ppl will play penals till they will be most useful main infantry including late game. Rebalancing cons and holy fu666ng maxim will be ok with penals cost increase to 320 mp.
Penal problem is not in penal.

Luchs is not free...

Zis is 480 MP plus 160 MP and 20 fuel. Total: 640 MP, 20 fuel.

Luchs is 265 MP and 60 fuel, plus 200 MP and 50 fuel for the structure. Total: 465 MP, 110 fuel.

The difference: 175 MP. Not enough even for a single Volksgrenadier squad. What numerical superiority? Even if it were enough for one additional Volksgrenadier squad, the Penals would still win. If you had the munitions, you could certainly deal some pain with a 60 muni Zis barrage (I actually think the cost of the Zis barrage should have both its cost and duration halved, since it does feel fairly weak versus infantry and it's easy to move infantry when you notice a Zis barrage, but I suppose it's meant to be used against buildings).

Luchs can control both flanks and the middle, while zis can only be at one popinion, because it's slower than luchs

I forgot, welcome to the forums. I suggest that before jumping right into balance threads to first open up threads in here https://www.coh2.org/forum/2/state-office.
Also filling playercard/replays goes a long way than rather just describing things with words.

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Incendiary grenades have their uses, but they seem slightly overpriced and have virtually no use against infantry who are not garrisoned.

Ok, it's rare that multiple squads are wiped, but they do have the potential to do so, and you will often see multiple squads crippled by a lucky satchel. Satchels, as someone else here has pointed out, are also very versatile, being useful against vehicles and structures also. I'm just saying they should be increased, to, say, 50-60 munitions?

I can't see this tactic working against any competent player.

...

Grenades with fuse are deadly but can be dodge. Flame DoT weapons deny cover and in the case of the OKW flame nade, it doesn't have a fuse so it lands and impacts instantly on close range. If cover play is not key at your games (since we don't have a single replay or playercard we can't assume rank nor gamemode) that's a different point.

Satchel are versatile but they require a HEAVY MISSPLAY (AKA lack of attention) of a player cause they takes ages to blow up. They are indeed versatile, but compared to any other snare in the game, they lack both range and they can be cancelled by running out of it's cast range. Basically, if you don't stay at melee range pushing them, you won't be satcheled.

Luchs is not free...
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You are missing some keys points. The game is not 1on1 scenarios and the mp difference and map presence is something which drags since min0 of the game.
OKW starts with more mp overall.

Game example:
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With a classic 2 CE start into T1, by the moment you get to start building T1:
SU has 190mp and 2xCE (170mp) at 340mp. T1 is 160mp. Total = 690mp
OKW at the same time has 220mp, SP 300mp and a Volks 250mp = 770mp

80mp lead just from the get-go and map/engagement control. The 1st/2nd CE is wasting time building T1. CE can't deal with either Volks or SP.
At the 1:00 mark, OKW has 2 Volks on the field (one of them been just built) + a SP. SU has 2 CE and is at a quarter in the production time for the first Penal. This is why Hector is insistent on map presence.
What you want to do as OKW: get on favorable cover. Get garrisons at annoying positions. Engage on the CE. If you face the first Penal, do so with a 2v2 or 2v1 approach (whatever mix of your comp against his Penal and CE. Focus fire)
Build freaking mines/wire against T1 openings.

3min mark:
OKW has 4 Volks, SP and building truck.
SU has 2 CE, 1 Penal and 1 M3A3. A 2nd Penal at 80% production.
Again, map control is crucial cause YOU ARE GONNA LOSE PART OF IT when the M3 flamer clowncar arrives. This is till you recover it during the early-mid game with tech.

Devm gives a class on how to play that match up perfectly.


Games as OH
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Another games as OKW
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Look at how the game is played at the first 10 mins.

IB4 allies OP blablabla, Penals can be adjusted (like in the EFA revamp, which reduces effectiveness on the move) but they are FAR from been a problem. Lend lease and crap alternatives are a problem, Penals aren't.

@OP; Really GJ for your persistence. Talking to these people is certainly exhausting.

When people refuse to show their playercard or replays of their game, that's a huge sign that the problems they might be facing are not due to balance but rather their own skill set.
In a similar way, solution to problems might not be feasible depending on the skillbracket.

Ex: kitting penals PTRS with light vehicle/tanks. This is something i would generally say, but if i'm advising someone at the 1000/2000 or even lower ranks, i would suggest other approaches.
Same if i tell anyone to use a sniper. At those levels i'll rather tell them to get another unit cause microing a sniper takes the few APM they have in a single unit they might not take full profit out of it.

Kiting is ok. But not against a unit with such a silly AT-Nade. And you don't even play the game anymore, yet you scorn people with low ranks?

@OP; Really GJ for your persistence. Talking to these people is certainly exhausting.


Kiting is ok. But not against a unit with such a silly AT-Nade. And you don't even play the game anymore, yet you scorn people with low ranks?

Penals "AT nade-satchel" get's cancelled once you get outside of it's range. I play casually 2v2 arranged team double OKW ez mode. I still follow the "pro" scene.
Skillwise i'm rusty but since a year or more, that's enough to play at high/decent level since most of raw amount of competition has left (when your top partner returns from an almost year hiatus and you get a higher or equal rank than after you left after LOSING your first game that tells you a lot. That was top100 AT).

About the 2nd part, it's not about been low ranked. It's about COMPLAINING FIRST, hiding behind anonymity, not looking for self criticism and just blaming the game.
There's a difference between:
-I found X unit problematic. I need help dealing with it.
-Y is too stronk. Relic pls nerf.

There's a difference between something been OP and something been annoying. OP is CalliOP or Ju87s. Annoying are emplacements, blob/spam, strict meta.

I would typically suppress blobs with an MG42 and shred them with double or even triple Panzerwerthers to ensure a wipe.

Your tactic make me believe that you are mainly playing 4v4/3v3, can you confirm or either post your playercard ?

I'm asking that because balance is not the same at all in 1v1 than in team games

However, you may have noticed that OKW have no decent MG. The MG34 is impotent and takes a good while to suppress

Well, you would be surprised how was MG34 1 year earlier, before relic buff it .. people still managed to supress ennemy blob with it so now it's quite good.

was unable to reproduce the 6 Volks v 5 Penal long-range victory, must've just been a fluke. In which case, Penals are more cost-effective at all ranges.

1. as i stated in my previous post, penal cost 33% more than volksgrenadier (reinforcement cost)
so you got to test 5 penals squad against 6,75 Volksgrenadier which is roughly 7.

2. Penals are far from being as "all rounded" as volksgrenadier, you can't use penal to clear house thanks to their flame grenade, you can't faust ennemy tanks, etc ..
Penals are specialized anti infantry units and so should be better than generic infantry.

In truth, if you want to stick to volksgrenadier, you should compare them to conscripts.
And let me tell you that a conscript squad will loose every single time, at any range to a volksgrenadier squad.

Add me on steam and i will show you how much okw is stronger than soviet on the matter of basic infantry.

if we only had had some kind of beta, let's say 6 months, in which we could'vetested the penals...

And you don't even play the game anymore, yet you scorn people with low ranks?

Whether he plays the game or not, he still has a vastly more unbiased and accurate opinion of the game than a lot of the more vocal people commenting on balance as well as having a decent understand of how the game works.

He is a very good player and when was playing often he was in a very good 2v2 team.

Your tactic make me believe that you are mainly playing 4v4/3v3, can you confirm or either post your playercard ?

I'm asking that because balance is not the same at all in 1v1 than in team games

Correct, I predominately play 4v4 and 3v3. I play a small amount of 2v2s, and even fewer 1v1s.

Well, you would be surprised how was MG34 1 year earlier, before relic buff it .. people still managed to supress ennemy blob with it so now it's quite good.

I don't remember how the MG34 was a year ago, but I know the last time I used it it took a ridiculous amount of time to suppress and is probably still the worst MG in the game. I have not used it since.

1. as i stated in my previous post, penal cost 33% more than volksgrenadier (reinforcement cost)
so you got to test 5 penals squad against 6,75 Volksgrenadier which is roughly 7.

No... Penals cost 300 MP, Volks cost 250 MP. Penals cost 20% more, not 33%. 5*(300/250) = 5*1.2 = 6.

Thus, you test 5 Penals versus 6 Volksgrenadiers. Maybe unit costs have changed since you last played.

2. Penals are far from being as "all rounded" as volksgrenadier, you can't use penal to clear house thanks to their flame grenade, you can't faust ennemy tanks, etc ..
Penals are specialized anti infantry units and so should be better than generic infantry.

Valid point, though Penals are still useful versus vehicles as well as infantry. It seems to me that SU has plenty of decent anti-infantry options early in the game (Penals, or even just ROK-3+clowncar), while OKW has very limited options in that regard until they get their Schwerer Panzer HQ (and Obersoldaten are still less cost-effective). Perhaps a more apt comparison would be OST Panzergrenadiers, but iirc when I tested them, Penals came out as more cost-effective than Pzgrens.

In truth, if you want to stick to volksgrenadier, you should compare them to conscripts.
And let me tell you that a conscript squad will loose every single time, at any range to a volksgrenadier squad.

Volksgrenadiers are not OP. They are in-line with most of the core infantry in this game. Conscripts are, I will admit, a little bit UP/lacking, as I admitted in my previous post (I even suggested they be buffed, if you read that post).

Add me on steam and i will show you how much okw is stronger than soviet on the matter of basic infantry.

You can't, 'cos they ain't. You only need one conscript squad in your Penal horde, who can throw 'tovs and anti-tank nades. You also forget that conscripts with the PPSh upgrade are rather formidable up close, easily shredding Volks and even Sturmpioneers.

No... Penals cost 300 MP, Volks cost 250 MP. Penals cost 20% more, not 33%. 5*(300/250) = 5*1.2 = 6.

When speaking about unit cost, i always talk about cost to reinforce (that's what really matters since you buy an unit only once but you got to reinforce it much more often).

So speaking of rienforcement cost :
Penal = 6*28 = 168
Volksgrenadier = 5*25 = 125

Penals cost 34% more to reinforce -> 5 penals = 7 Volksgrenadier.

You can't, 'cos they ain't. You only need one conscript squad in your Penal horde, who can throw 'tovs and anti-tank nades. You also forget that conscripts with the PPSh upgrade are rather formidable up close, easily shredding Volks and even Sturmpioneers.

Only one squad of conscript in a penal horde ... still got to spend 50 fuel to unlock "tovs and anti-tank nades" for a single squad, which will often not be at the right place to save your ass.

PPsh conscript on the other hand actually manage to out DPS volks at close range, but they will always loose from 2 to 3 model until they get close enough and so will still loose.

I agree with you that coh2 is globally not balanced at all, but you can't say that on the few units that have been tweaked by community modding team.

Take a look at the EFA revamp mod if you are looking for balance, or just leave coh2 for another RTS better made.

When speaking about unit cost, i always talk about cost to reinforce (that's what really matters since you buy an unit only once but you got to reinforce it much more often).

So speaking of rienforcement cost :
Penal = 6*28 = 168
Volksgrenadier = 5*25 = 125

Penals cost 34% more to reinforce -> 5 penals = 7 Volksgrenadier.

I thought reinforce cost work like this :

(Unit Cost / 2 ) / Units in Squad

Therefore

Penal reinforce cost = ( 300 /2 ) / 6 = 25

Volksgrenadier = ( 250 / 2 ) / 5 = 25

So penals cost 20 % more to purchase and 25% more to reinforce ( assuming you are reinforcing from 1 man )