Crazy idea: Remove auto barrages from all artillery

I've read this idea a lot of times but I think it might help to fix some of the major issues of current meta.

Somehow mortars seem to be the only "intelligent" unit in the game. Just think about it: MGs don't turn automatically when being flanked, neither do PaKs. Also other artillery like the LeFH (German artillery emplacement) doesn't shoot on its own.

So why are mortars an exception? They automatically attack everything in their range and stack more kills than usual infantry. That's why I thought, why not removing the auto barrage from them completely?

I would like to see mortars and artillery as what they are concepted to be: To handle support teams, to clear buildings and to provide smoke for your inf to advance.

My suggestions:

• Remove auto barrage from Mortars and Howitzers
  
• Give mortars a bit more range to compensate
  
• Reduce the cooldown from the barrages to about 50% to smallen the time the mortar won't fire
  
• Make barrages a bit more precise (about 10%) to compensate for the lack of auto fire, also more damage against units in buildings.
  
• Maybe even add the possibility to define up to three points that will be barraged one after the other in one barrage, exactly like a single barrage but less shots per barrage location (3 shots per single target)
  

With this the mortars can still fulfill their role (even a bit better with the barrage buffs) while not being a stupid "buy-and-forget" unit.
Mortar Pits would also be balanced as they have double the fire power but cannot move. The emplacement is currently too strong because Brit players can build it somewhere safe and it bleeds the enemy automatically. This would be the case anymore.

Great, another unit that will need babysitting.

The casuals just wanna play, they don't wanna micro manage every single unit by telling it where and when to fire.

The arty pieces are enough of a headache as it is and most people often forget about them so it will be no different with the mortara.

Sure, the game is all about to place the units and forget about them. Who needs a game which requires to pay attention anyway?

Great, another unit that will need babysitting.

It is a RTS game, that's the way it is. I stated that the mortar even is an exception because every unit needs some kind of babysitting. The mortar was IMO never meant to fire at every single soldier it sees. Just see it from a Rock Paper Scissor point of view:

Mortar: Rock
Support weapons: Scissors
Infantry: Paper

The mortar (Rock) is meant to counter Supports (Scissors) and should die from Inf (Paper). But currently the Rock simply hammers against Scissors AND Paper and can mostly only be countered by other Rocks, which should not be the case. You have to face MGs and PaKs and you have to maneuver your inf through the battlefield. How hard would it be to tell your mortar to "barrage this MG here"?

The casuals just wanna play, they don't wanna micro manage every single unit by telling it where and when to fire.

As I said, it's the same with all support weapons currently EXCEPT indirect fire units. By your logic, a PaK should place its cone to where a tank will appear if it is visible on the minimap. Same for MGs. But that's not the case. A mortar automatically barrages the last position, an enemy soldier was seen. Why doesn't the PaK automatically face the last tank that has been seen too?

The arty pieces are enough of a headache as it is and most people often forget about them so it will be no different with the mortara.

If somebody forgets his Katy or Stuka then it is his own fault. Don't invest in a unit you don't use.


Sorry but all your points state are just some kind of "lazy logic". While removing auto barrages would add bit more micro to the game, it would also make the game way less hectic. In my opinion all the RNG wipes and losses from auto barrages require much more micro because your units are being under fire and dying all the time without any further micro investment from your enemy.

I kinda like the idea, but with the responsiveness of mortars so crap i think it would make them useless as they would never be able to fire soon enough to do anything but push a stubborn unit out of a building.

MMAAAAYYYBE give them an arch like an MG where they would auto fire at (they have to pick up and set down to fire in a substantially different direction anyway).

OOORRRR make the auto attack have less range and manual have really high range. I would personally be happy for mortars to have greater range provided they didnt wipe stuff and needed a little micro.

MMAAAAYYYBE give them an arch like an MG where they would auto fire at (they have to pick up and set down to fire in a substantially different direction anyway).

I would support this idea as well. Thus some change would have to be brought to some arty piece with a ridiculous small arc such as the Pak howi.

This was tested:

"Balance Preview Updated 10/14/2015

LEIG / Pak Howitzer

Barrage Reload changes reverted
No Longer can auto face"

It did not work due to attack move

I would support this idea as well. Thus some change would have to be brought to some arty piece with a ridiculous small arc such as the Pak howi.

I personally like the change to auto attack idea, if i had to change auto attack. I would rather increase range and ROF but decrease lethality a lot.

if the dev do that,....the forum will be heavily shoot by brits cry babys, that their mortar is not more OP like now.

a little start: give the mortars a arc like other support weopoans...so its need micro...and not like the motar emplcamcnet now..build&forget = profit like noob.

This was tested:

"Balance Preview Updated 10/14/2015

LEIG / Pak Howitzer

Barrage Reload changes reverted
No Longer can auto face"

It did not work due to attack move

Ah yes, you're right.

I personally like the change to auto attack idea, if i had to change auto attack. I would rather increase range and ROF but decrease lethality a lot.

I wouldn't increase range or ROF. Just make mortar do half damage on auto-fire.

It is a RTS game, that's the way it is. I stated that the mortar even is an exception because every unit needs some kind of babysitting. The mortar was IMO never meant to fire at every single soldier it sees. Just see it from a Rock Paper Scissor point of view:

Mortar: Rock
Support weapons: Scissors
Infantry: Paper

The mortar (Rock) is meant to counter Supports (Scissors) and should die from Inf (Paper). But currently the Rock simply hammers against Scissors AND Paper and can mostly only be countered by other Rocks, which should not be the case. You have to face MGs and PaKs and you have to maneuver your inf through the battlefield. How hard would it be to tell your mortar to "barrage this MG here"?



As I said, it's the same with all support weapons currently EXCEPT indirect fire units. By your logic, a PaK should place its cone to where a tank will appear if it is visible on the minimap. Same for MGs. But that's not the case. A mortar automatically barrages the last position, an enemy soldier was seen. Why doesn't the PaK automatically face the last tank that has been seen too?


If somebody forgets his Katy or Stuka then it is his own fault. Don't invest in a unit you don't use.


Sorry but all your points state are just some kind of "lazy logic". While removing auto barrages would add bit more micro to the game, it would also make the game way less hectic. In my opinion all the RNG wipes and losses from auto barrages require much more micro because your units are being under fire and dying all the time without any further micro investment from your enemy.

THe best thing about CoH is that it's not that simple stupid Rock paper scissors pudding that EVERY OTHER RTS HAS.

play a different one if you don't like it. Htere are enough of it

I kinda like the idea, but with the responsiveness of mortars so crap i think it would make them useless as they would never be able to fire soon enough to do anything but push a stubborn unit out of a building.

That's why I suggested to let the barrage have a faster cooldown. Mortars should IMO not be used to attack infantry on open grounds. Barrages could get a damage improvement against units in buildings.

The suggested larger range would also be beneficial.

I do not like the idea of a cone for mortars as this has been implemented for LeIGs and Pack Howies before and did absolutely not work. It would IMO also feel like a very irritating and "half this, half that" kind of a solution.

THe best thing about CoH is that it's not that simple stupid Rock paper scissors pudding that EVERY OTHER RTS HAS.
play a different one if you don't like it. Htere are enough of it

Nice, was just waiting for this bullshit "If you don't like muh country, leave it! US" kind of redneck posts. If you don't like other opinions, why don't you just leave this fucking board? That's about the same attitude. I accept your opinion, but I don't try to silence you for it, which you obviously do.

CoH has a Rock Paper Scissors concept like every other game too. In CoH there are hardcounters, where the countered unit has little to no chance to fight it's attacker back (e.g Mortars vs units in Garrisons) and soft counters (e.g Inf with AT weapons vs Anti Inf tanks).

Don't act like the mortar isn't currently the rock to the scissors being units in buildings. The only thing that would change is that it would be just harder to kill units on open field because you have to barrage them on your own (= more micro investment).

A mortar is currently too much hardcounter for inf in my opinion. This should be the role of MGs but Mortars excel way too much at this role atm.

I think this is a good step in terms of balance since it increases the reward for good micro and less for less micro but I'm not sure the majority of players could adjust. It would require more ilunit responsiveness I think.

I think it is not good idea. If you will do arc for mortars, this bring more balance questions. What about mortarHT's? What about 120mm? What about brits? If you give them long range and accuracy with arc...mortar spam will be viable. Wihthou extended range, arc only kill mortars, because they can't supress infantry like HMG's do.

The thing is, it wouldnt really need much "babysitting", just set your mortar or mortars to a control group and make shift order to barrange and move if needed and after a bit of time if you need it again to counter a support weapon/garrisoned unit/building select it again and repeat.
I find it funny how the mortar knows where the infantry is moving to and can land a shot to kill some models, super realistic. Not to mention that mortars arent supposed to counter moving infantry...

Why not make all mortars not auto-fire and take the cooldown away from the barrage ability and make their barrage more precise with each shot the mortar takes. For example, the first shot will always be the less accurate (could still hit but the probability of doing so would be the lowest) giving the other player time to react and if he didnt he would be punished by the increasing amount of precision of the next shots. And if that wouldnt be enough maybe decrease the time the mortars take to shoot the first round.

I think this change alone would fix the cancer that are team games with no skill/no micro mortar spam.

As your poll suggests, more people are against it than for it.

What I suggest is that the auto-barrage be simply nerfed, and have the ability buffed.

So the auto-barrage will just chip away at squads and kill a model or 2 at the most, while the barrage ability will be the heavy damage dealer and will be the what the mortar was designed for, precise mortar strikes for let's say, garrisons.

But removing it completely will erupt civil wars between the competitive high APM "pros" and the more casual players of the community, which is the majority.

It is a RTS game, that's the way it is. I stated that the mortar even is an exception because every unit needs some kind of babysitting. The mortar was IMO never meant to fire at every single soldier it sees. Just see it from a Rock Paper Scissor point of view:

Mortar: Rock
Support weapons: Scissors
Infantry: Paper

The mortar (Rock) is meant to counter Supports (Scissors) and should die from Inf (Paper). But currently the Rock simply hammers against Scissors AND Paper and can mostly only be countered by other Rocks, which should not be the case. You have to face MGs and PaKs and you have to maneuver your inf through the battlefield. How hard would it be to tell your mortar to "barrage this MG here"?



As I said, it's the same with all support weapons currently EXCEPT indirect fire units. By your logic, a PaK should place its cone to where a tank will appear if it is visible on the minimap. Same for MGs. But that's not the case. A mortar automatically barrages the last position, an enemy soldier was seen. Why doesn't the PaK automatically face the last tank that has been seen too?


If somebody forgets his Katy or Stuka then it is his own fault. Don't invest in a unit you don't use.


Sorry but all your points state are just some kind of "lazy logic". While removing auto barrages would add bit more micro to the game, it would also make the game way less hectic. In my opinion all the RNG wipes and losses from auto barrages require much more micro because your units are being under fire and dying all the time without any further micro investment from your enemy.

Sorry for double posting but: The 17 pounder, as far as I remember, didn't have a visual arc, and it auto-rotated.

So there.

And no, it's not lazy logic, it's casual logic.

Not everybody can be competitive high APM starcraft 2 "pros".

Some people just wanna get back from work and play a few comp stomps or something without worrying about babysitting a 260/280 man power unit.

And I think that you will find that your logic is wrong, all support units fire automatically, they just need to be set up in a direction in order to fire in that direction. What you're suggesting is the removal of the auto-fire ability of the mortar, which as you might have noticed by your poll, is a big no no to most of the community.

I vote for 4 small office wells for Mortor Pit.

I said it before, remove it from 1v1 and 2v2, keep it for the casual 3v3 and 4v4 modes.