Eastern Front Armies Revamp

I've played a couple games, will make observations on those when i'm confident in my impressions.

Some things I've observed outside actual gameplay (i.e. using cheatcommands)

Elefant HE barrage is extremely strong. I'd say this constitutes a buff to the unit. Long aim time, but full 70 range, no vet requirement, and low cost- tested it and it wiped a zis and destroyed the gun, in one barrage, at max range. I like the direction behind this change - makes less a zero or hero unit now it has a lot of utility. Cannot attest to actual balance.

Technically it's 80 range barrage :-)

The tank-detection maphax is 90 range.

The Elefant is probably going to forever remain a troll unit for 1v1's. However, some people might be more willing to troll with it now that it's a half-pak43 half-howitzer.

ISU deflection is bugged - on deflection off target that it should kill, it reduces HP to zero instead. The next shot, ofc, kills the target. I think this is similar to a bug with handheld AT weapons that emerged a little while ago. Regardless, the effect of this change together with the arcing shells (a major nerf considering the wipe potential of the unit before) has probably realigned it as more anti-tank / anti-team weapon than anti-inf (this is not necessarily a bad thing imo).

The arcing projectiles will actually make ISU less map-dependent (e.g., langress, where the HE shells would collide for days). At the same time, the unit will now, indeed require some micro to use vs infantry squads (predicting their movement and doing attack ground)

The non-death on deflection is governed by the target. Some units have a requirement to be penetrated so that they can die.

The handheld-AT bug is entirely unrelated and have been fixed in the mod. Though thanks for bringing that up!

We messed up the patchnotes a bit and some (mostly minor) stuff is missing from them.

TWP 80 damage nerf basically moves the ability into the dustbin imo. Nobody's going to exchange another shot to kill a tank for a temporary blinding effect.

TWP will always penetrate for 80 damage, and always blind the target. You are basically going to be needing that vs heavier tanks later in the game.

Panther changes don't solve the main problem. It performs fine against heavies but sucks against mediums. The new damage increase makes it more effective against heavies but doesn't help it much against mediums. Keep it at 160 and improve rate-of-fire instead.

Panther shouldn't be great vs mediums; that's Stug's job. And Stug shouldn't be amazing vs heavies; that's Panther's job. Ostheer is not OKW.

Nevertheless the damage buff DOES add up when you consider panzerfaust damage.

-Vet3: Reduced Received accuracy modifier modifier from 0.6 to 0.707 (Writing errors)

Not a typo; Conscripts lose some received accuracy (since they get some earlier at Vet1), and they also get accuracy bonuses

-PM-42 where reduced crew from 6 to 5 ?? (Writing errors)

We reduced the popcap of the mortar. The crew size remains 6.

-Title: SU76 should be SU76/SU85. But there are no changes in the su85 (Writing errors)

I'm not sure what you mean

The SU85 only had a change in its popcap.

1.IMO call-ins WEHR too much variety to request. New players and their implementation is very confusing due to its variety.

What do you mean?

2.-Added randomized visual randomization in the hull. What does it mean?

T-34s have a 50% chance to spawn with some boxes on their hull (animator state)

Seriously - there's no point in this commander now. Previously, he rewarded for aggressive actions, and it was very difficult to implement: because conscripts - suck and you do not build tiers.

Now conscripts no longer suck. QED.

Now, the FQ is a heal and reinforcement - it can be destroyed with a single grenade (wooden house), it is still specific and suitable only on city maps. So that the retreat point is a necessary compensation for aura loss.

We are considering changes to the garrison mechanic (hence the OST Trench/Bunker load/unload changes as a testbed). (changing for all 400 garrison-able entities in the game will require writing a script).

Once garrisons become less cancerous, we will reconsider changing grenade damage vs buildings.

This is something we might have to consider when we do WFA rework. This is because WFA faction poor track record vs garrisons.

Panther shouldn't be great vs mediums; that's Stug's job. And Stug shouldn't be amazing vs heavies; that's Panther's job. Ostheer is not OKW.

tbh then I don't really see a prerogative to change the Panther. As I said originally, it's already strong against heavies (due to fantastic penetration).

Not sure how I feel about the Conscript changes. The old Conscripts were more accurate in a Historical sense in that they weren't the best at pinpoint shooting so Relic compensated them by making actual hits deal heavier damage. I would have liked to keep this concept. Making them shoot accurately (With Mosin Nagants) before getting any Veterancy is a big departure from this design, which I liked.

Now with these changes, Conscripts are in theory weaker at Vet 3 since they don't keep their heavy damage Mosin Nagants (16 Damage as opposed to 10 Damage in this mod) which benefited from +40% Accuracy Buffs at Vet 3. Couple that with their horrendous debuff when picking up any German Slot Weapons and you don't want to have the Conscripts pick them up anymore as spoils of war.

I disapprove of these changes. I would have much rather seen maybe a decrease in Slots for Conscripts if you really had to tackle the Vickers LMG exploit. Such as only being able to pick up one Slot Weapon instead of two. At least then, you wouldn't be gimping the performance of all captured weapons.

Ok can we get this

Reload key for MGs
Added a force-reload ability to all MGs

for all infantry as well?

VERY nice changes. Meta needs shaking up. Any unforeseen batshit overpoweredness that will surely result from these changes is a small price to pay to move away from the lend lease meta, and can be dealt with swiftly by the mod team.

I strongly disagree with Elefant getting any sort of HE ability, however, that might be because I am still traumatized by its old antiarmour potential. I have memories of a single Elefant (with support) holding the mid and top VPs 3v4 (after an axis player drop) on Steppes to win. I was on both sides of that particular recipe.

Overall I feel what the Elefant does now seems to get the best of both worlds: antiarmour shells normally, and targeted AT gun deletion potential on demand with minimal micro requirements. Whereas ISU, which was historically known for not really needing to bother with armour piercing shells to straight up murder German heavies, has to do the micro-intensive dance of switching ammo types and suffering the cooldowns all the time.

Panzergrenadiers and Guards vet1 changes are very interesting. Vehicle detection seems out of place on Panzergrenadiers, it basically makes them into an even more of a "Panzerschreckgrenadiers" unit.

I'd like to see more vet1 infantry bonuses revamp since they have been a placeholder since coh2 release anyway. Also there is the Soviet tank vet bonus which enables them to stop shooting for a while, which is still very useful (though an IS2 point capping did save me a game once).

Not sure how I feel about the Conscript changes. The old Conscripts were more accurate in a Historical sense in that they weren't the best at pinpoint shooting so Relic compensated them by making actual hits deal heavier damage. I would have liked to keep this concept. Making them shoot accurately (With Mosin Nagants) before getting any Veterancy is a big departure from this design, which I liked.

Conscript changes are in-line with Osttruppen.

At vet0 Osttruppen have:
- 0.84 to 0.945 accuracy
- Deal 8 damage

This allows Osttruppen to scale well as defensive infantry. If you're going to lose the fight, you might as well want to have some damage dealt to show for it.

Recall that high-RNG damage works both ways.

Now with these changes, Conscripts are in theory weaker at Vet 3 since they don't keep their heavy damage Mosin Nagants (16 Damage as opposed to 10 Damage in this mod) which benefited from +40% Accuracy Buffs at Vet 3. Couple that with their horrendous debuff when picking up any German Slot Weapons and you don't want to have the Conscripts pick them up anymore as spoils of war.

Stock mosins have received:
+5% more DPS at near
+25% more DPS at far

Overall, Conscripts also receive another flat +15% accuracy bonus at vet3 (the +40% accuracy at vet2 remains). I don't understand where you spotted a nerf there.

The whole point about slot-item debuffs is that:
- Elite infantry should be better at handling weapons than conscripts/osttruppen; not the other way around

I strongly disagree with Elefant getting any sort of HE ability, however, that might be because I am still traumatized by its old antiarmour potential. I have memories of a single Elefant (with support) holding the mid and top VPs 3v4 (after an axis player drop) on Steppes to win. I was on both sides of that particular recipe.

The Elefant doesn't have an amazing accuracy, and with the damage changes it will be possible to swarm it more easily with medium armour, and maybe even have your TD's support the push for a change (in live version Elefant will 2-shot TDs, allowing it to kill a TD in 9 seconds).

The HE ability might need some recallibration, sure. Currently we threw the best range, best AoE and most number of shells out of the lot, so that we know what/whether to recalibrate as we test the barrage.

Recall that the Elefant barrage has a 80 second cooldown (the Vet1 barrage cooldown bonus was a mistake, since we replaced it with armour detection).

New ISU HE shells are amazing. Also recall that the ISU isn't forced to dump all its shells at the same spot.

Panzergrenadiers and Guards vet1 changes are very interesting. Vehicle detection seems out of place on Panzergrenadiers, it basically makes them into an even more of a "Panzerschreckgrenadiers" unit.

The idea is that tracking a vehicle in the fog of war will help your tanks have an easier time hunting the unit down. The ability is still in-progress though.

Also there is the Soviet tank vet bonus which enables them to stop shooting for a while, which is still very useful (though an IS2 point capping did save me a game once).

Use hold fire? :-)

i will try to playtest this as soon as i can find time.

i really hope for the conscripts consistency. Unreliability is one of the worst things of any unit


any plans to look into emplacements and brace?

M3A1
We are reintroducing the scaling-improvement changes we had trialed for the M3A1 during WBP. The goal of the changes is to allow the M3A1 to have a second lease later in the game.

In the future, we might consider having a look at the popcap of transport vehicles.

-Gains 1.2 Acceleration and Deceleration per veterancy rank
-Veterancy 3 also awards a 0.7 received accuracy modifier
-Health from 200 to 240
-Front armour from 5.4 to 4.5
-Rear armour from 4.2 to 3.5
-Gains Shared Veterancy

Some of the issues of the vehicle are:
High DPS from both HMG especial rear one which should have lower DPS than the frontal one.

The ability of passenger to fire. Reduce fuel cost to 5-0 and allow passenger to fire only with an upgrade or via veterancy.

Conscript changes are in-line with Osttruppen.

At vet0 Osttruppen have:
- 0.84 to 0.945 accuracy
- Deal 8 damage

This allows Osttruppen to scale well as defensive infantry. If you're going to lose the fight, you might as well want to have some damage dealt to show for it.

Recall that high-RNG damage works both ways.



Stock mosins have received:
+5% more DPS at near
+25% more DPS at far

Overall, Conscripts also receive another flat +15% accuracy bonus at vet3 (the +40% accuracy at vet2 remains). I don't understand where you spotted a nerf there.

The whole point about slot-item debuffs is that:
- Elite infantry should be better at handling weapons than conscripts/osttruppen; not the other way around

Thanks for answering my concerns. Glad to see I misunderstood the changes. I was under the impression that the Accuracy Multiplier had been changed to +15% from +40% to compensate for the higher Mosin Nagant accuracy. And I do indeed see the point you make on Conscripts needing to be worse with Slot Weapons, being poorly trained. But now that you tell me the +40% Accuracy is indeed still there, I am no longer concerned.

Sure, they don't get the same weapons but with +40% accuracy like pre-mod, but the +55% worth of Accuracy Multipliers from Vet should at least make them not useless after all (Getting +8% more accurate instead?). Stops them from being overpowered at least.

As for your high-RNG point, I still liked it the other way but it won't ruin the game for me. Just means it's less historically accurate.

I concede defeat!

Also, thanks for putting in the Support Weapons in Halftrack changes! Looking forward to using that.

Thanks for answering my concerns. Glad to see I misunderstood the changes. I was under the impression that the Accuracy Multiplier had been changed to +15% from +40% to compensate for the higher Mosin Nagant accuracy. And I do indeed see the point you make on Conscripts needing to be worse with Slot Weapons, being poorly trained. But now that you tell me the +40% Accuracy is indeed still there, I am no longer concerned.

Sure, they don't get the same weapons but with +40% accuracy like pre-mod, but the +55% worth of Accuracy Multipliers from Vet should at least make them not useless after all (Getting +8% more accurate instead?). Stops them from being overpowered at least.

Note that Conscripts do lose some overall received accuracy too (they are 8%? easier to hit at vet3 now). They, however, get their veterancy bonuses more progressively, rather than everything at Vet3.

This might constitute a minor nerf to PPSh. However, we first want to focus on adjusting baseline conscripts (e.g., molotov thrown time), before we polish doctrinal conscript stuff.

Pwerfer
The moment a squad gets hit by a rocket, it gets insta-pinned. Then you lose control. The moment you lose control of a squad that's going to get hit by 9 other rockets, you have a dead squad.

But losing control doesn't matter to begin with since all the rockets land at basically the same time anyways. That's what makes it different from the katushya; the alpha dmg.
If the enemy squad is caught by only one rocket (at edge of barrage circle) then it doesn't matter if it's pinned or not since the others landed in the other part of the circle.
If the enemy squad is in or near the middle of the circle, it doesnt matter if it gets pinned or not, it's not gonna have time to leave the circle before the other rockets hit them.

Any way you look at it the pinning changes nothing for the survival of the squad aside from giving it ~ half a second to move?

What the suppresion DOES do is encourage them to retreat the squad since it'll give the ost player time to react to the pinned units. I think the concept of the Pwerfer being similar to the nebelwerfer in vcoh for deterring (not wiping) blobs was a good one. These changes are doing the opposite -->faster aim time means more accuracy barrage on target--->less time to dodge barrage---> more wipes, but if they barely dodge it they still aren't slowed down. I feel like these changes make the unit more of a hit or miss gimick and less of a strategic late game blob counter.

I don't see this as a buff or nerf per se, it's more just changing the role of the Pwerfer to a wipe machine and less of a blob deterrent which I don't think anyone thinks it should be.


Elephant
It's a powerful SU76-like barrage with low accuracy but big-enough radius that can go through all world objects.

I don't see the point in making a heavy tank destroyer something it's not but I'm not gonna bother arguing why a heavy TD should only be a heavy TD.




The goal of demos should be to use them to soften up a squad and follow up with your troops to finish it off. Pinning increases the defenses of the squad by 10x.

This should be the role of the Pwerfer as well^^

Panzer Tactician
Panzer tactician is a no-micro get-out-of-jail free card. Just like USF decrewing their vehicles is not instant (to prevent target acquisitioning abuse), the same should be the case for instant smoke.

Dude it takes up one of the commander abilities. It's NOT FREE, IT COSTS 30 MUNITIONS. It's a defensive ability that blocks vision for ~5 seconds? You can counter it with attack ground as well. Now you want to make it worse than the allied equivalents that are both non-doctrinal. I am curious how often you think this ability will be used and useful with your proposed changes.

Spotting Scopes
Spotting scopes bestow a massive 70-range sight bonus. Other factions get at most 50-range scout units. This is massive, and it's not something you should be able to use offensively (e.g., by using the stop-hitting trick to glide your shots).

The change will bring spotting scopes a bit more in-line with self-debuffing abilities (e.g., focus sight).

As for turretless tanks, you can now use the handbrake on them, to prevent rotation and keep full benefit of the scopes.

I dont see (no pun intended) why giving extra sight to a faction that doesn't have tanks that fire more than 50 range is a problem even if used offensively. It's not like focus sight for SU-85 which has more range and doesn't need to stop to shoot. It takes up a spot on the commander which limits other ostheer strategies.

TWP
Having debuff abilities that cause the full damage plus guaranteed penetration vs all armour types begs for them to be spammed. As per the other issues, we do not like low-micro no-brainer abilities.

How often do paks fail to penetrate? Hardly ever. Why spend 30 munitions to guarantee you do half dmg and slow them down for 5 seconds. This isn't a no brainer ability either. Often times when you activate the ability the enemy drives out of range and your 30 munitions is wasted.

The rapid maneuvers on the 6 pounder is a FREE no brainer ability, not twp.

I think a number of the changes are awesome but some are simply uncalled for.

I think a number of the changes are awesome but some are simply uncalled for.

I understand your concerns about changes making OST Doctrinal smoke worse than other factions' smoke. However:
- Soviets don't have any similar ability
- Similar smoke abilities will be nerfed to OST Smoke level once we know where OST Smoke should be (otherwise it's a pain keeping everything updated with each other)

Here, we're trying to establish what the baseline should be. Once we have the baseline we will adjust the other factions around it.

Do note that the majority of OST tanks received either minor or major buffs. You don't need an OP ability on top of that.

We could make OST smoke a targeted ability (to be used offensively). However that would require time to implement.

For the PWerfer we'll have to see. My gut feeling is that people won't bother with it in 1v1s unless it can wipe. Even though the Katyusha is balanced for Soviets, OST would never have a use for a Katyusha.

My gut feeling is that getting rid of insta-suppression will allow a squad to dodge to the side of a barrage, if the player reacts fast enough. Current barrage means you lose control over the squad altogether.

At the same time, suppression isn't that useful in 1v1's either. You just wasted a long barrage just to potentially scare a squad back to base? I wouldn't build a PWerfer for that.

If the barrage remains problematic, sure, we can add a tiny delay between groups of rockets. e.g., making the PWerfer unload in 2 volleys separated by 0.5 secs each

I could be wrong, however. That's why we're testing that idea.

I'm not really agree with Trenches fixes for Brits since they would dig their own grave by making them.

For example, OKW player can unlock his flame nades, use them on Brit in trench (force him to leave it and wait until fire will end, which means that he will recieve damage waiting for it = probably lose fight), so OKW will occupy this trench and Brit player will be forces to upgrade nade (that can be dodged easily even with new load time, since damage is instance comparing to flame nades that is continuing damaging after explosion) or invest in risky UC with flames, or pick nerfed matress commander only for flamethrower to fight this trench back. To deal with Brits trenches cancer maybe u should just remove trenches from Tommys (they still have sandbags for early game) and give them to royal sappers (leave old brit trenches etc not neutral) so it will delay it giving axis players more time to respond.

By the way, like other changes, also this changes with partisans should be applied to all call-in from building units (like Fallschirmjäger or Inf. Commandos) making their grenade ablities on start from a cooldown.

Use hold fire? :-)

I was talking about the the Secure Mode ability or whatever it's called. Germans get Blitzkrieg (with all sorts of bonuses, which have thankfully been nerfed over the years) and Russians get ... the ability to have their tanks not fire for a while

Penal Battalion
We are slowing the veterancy-gain rate of Penals down to their intended values, to evaluate whether this addresses the issue of Penals being too strong in the early game.

-Veterancy requirements increased from 540/1080/2160 to 640/1280/2560
-Cooldown veterancy bonus moved from Vet2 to Vet3

Stick Satchel (Targeted/Homing)
This is a workaround aimed to address the unfortunate HT-satcheling bug (which we cannot fix).

-Now deals reduced damage vs enemy infantry
-Still deals full damage vs friendly infantry
-Manual (non-homing) satchel unchanged

Since conscript have received a buff and a defensive orientation Penal need to be redesigned for a number of reason:

Soviets already have doctrinal elite infantry and they do not need a stock inf arty to compete with their elite infantry.

Timing of Penal is too soon.

Soviet with a wide variety of anti-garrison options do not need molotovs an anti garrison device in their mainline infantry (conscripts)

Suggested changes aiming at offensive role for Penals :
1) AT satchel now requires AT upgrade price increased.
Reason: the price is far to low for a powerful AT snare compared to gammon bomb. The ability should not available with no upgrade/tech cost.

2) Penal spawn with 6 PPsh and work between assault grenadiers and osttruppen price lowered.
Reason:
A clear defensive offensive orientation for Penal/conscript allow both units to operate together instead of being an one or the other option.

3) Ourah, molotov moved to Penals. Ourah increase TS but penalties improve with veterancy. Ourah removed is PTRS upgrade is chosen.
Reason: Anti-garrison becomes a less available allows to better balance garrison. Ourah become an ability that has to be used strategically and not spammed.

4) PTRS works as other PTRS.
Reason: Simplify things does not confuse players. PPsh allow Penal to defended against infantry attacks at close range but make them weak at AI.

5) Change vet abilities and bonuses to better suit an offensive oriented unit.

Great changes so far, really appreciate the work you guys put into this.
One or two points about some Ostheer stuff:
-The changes to the Artillery Officier are great, however, I don´t think its enough to make him really viable. He desperately needs another vet 1 ability
-Ostwind also needs something else, Blitzkrieg is great, but it doesn't help to set it apart from the p4. A stationary mode there it suppresses would maybe be a great idea
-250HT changes are great, but still the cps are to high for a Grens squad with basically a M3 without mgs. Also its the only Ostheer unit which cant vet. Maybe give it the ability to act as a forward retreating post.
-Ambush Camouflage, bug fixes are great, but why cant the pioneers get upgraded with it. Its the one unit there it would be really good.
-Close Air Support AT Loiter needs a nerf. Its way too good in what it does, so to nerf the strafe from CAS and dont touch the Loiter seems inconsistent.
-Pak 40 TWP nerfs are justified, but you should add sight loss to the penalties. Right now you only slow the target for half the damage and a munition cost.

-Close Air Support AT Loiter needs a nerf. Its way too good in what it does, so to nerf the strafe from CAS and dont touch the Loiter seems inconsistent.

CAS loiter has been nerfed too. We just messed up the patchnotes :-)

CAS loiter:
- Autocannon damage decreased from 60 to 40
- No longer applies criticals to tanks (AT strafe retains criticals)

That could be an idea. Our goal with the delay was to emulate the turning rate penalties other units receive.

The problem with what you propose, however, is that we need to find a suitable slot to place the ability that will be the same for all vehicles. We already had issues doing this for handbrake

I'll try to investigate.

Thanks for taking the time to explain everything! I understand that predicament! Good luck!

Guardsmen. Need add ability "hit the vulnerable sites" if you buy PTRS - temporarily destroys tracks or increases the damage, more critical damage