Lack of Inclusivity of CoH2's Community in DoW3 Beta

I've posted this in the DoW3 forum but it also needs to be said here since DoW3's success is vital to the longevity of CoH2. A rising tide raises all ships so if Relic prospers with DoW3, we might see more content for CoH2. CoH2 & DoW3 are different enough to have unique esports scenes. Also the DoW3 scene could be a much needed source for new players for our esports scene. Simply put, DoW3's success could be CoH2's.

Now onto the problem at hand, we are less than 6 weeks from launch and besides Helping Hans, the entire CoH2 scene isn’t included in the beta. The CoH2 community needs to be included for two main reasons:

1. Give balance feedback since the top tier players are able to ascertain potential balance problems that the general pop. won’t notice.

2. Allow the esport scene to start forming. Give players more experience since waiting would be wasting time. For reference, The Frontline Network organized the first CoH2 tournament before the beta’s end and they wouldn’t have been able to do so if the players & casters/organizers weren’t given adequate time to prep. Another example is Tempo Storm as founder Reynad became one of the first & most successful Hearthstone players during the beta. If he wasn’t in the beta, chances are Tempo Storm wouldn’t be what it is today.

With the three DoW3 & the one CoH2 community managers, I’m sadden that this hasn’t already been done. With the mixed response to DoW3 (being more like a MOBA & SC2), it would be imperative to get our pro players’ perspective. Recently on Generals Gentlemen’s podcast, Hans was the only one who gave a favorable appraisal of DoW3 since he was the only one who played it. Despite being one of CoH2's lead balance patchers, GG The Machine didn’t get an invite. Neither did ESL/Warpaint caster and tourney organizer Stormless. If they played it, they would probably have a more favorable impression. Once the NDA is lifted, our competitive scene would be more experience thus provide better matches & entertainment for viewers. As such, most of the negative perception surrounding DoW3 would dissipate.

Here is a list of some of the major CoH2 community members:

Luvnest, Helping Hans, Von Ivan, DevM, Momo4sho, Ciez, Siberian, VindicareX (also pro DoW2 player), Stormless, GGTheMachine, Tightrope, and Shadowwada.

If I forgot someone, comment to let Relic know. This is only a partial list of our top players, streamers, and content creators. Also I'm not familiar with DoW2 pro scene, so i can't give specific names, but their top community members & pro players should be included for the same reasons.

Everything I have seen from dowIII suggests they have completely abandoned all mechanics of their previous games to create some kind of Starcraft with micro transactions. Relic"s vision for dowIII is not a tactical squad based game but a spammy bloby meat-grinder.

That's fine but I don't think the coh community can help with what is a completely different game.

We could ask them to add a retreat button.

Got to put my name in there since if they forgot to add our entire esports scene, they might forget to add the guy who made the post

I think there has to be a fine line when determining which "pro" coh2 players should be invited to beta and/or alpha tests like these. For example, why should Momo and Ciez be invited to alpha and beta tests? Did they win any tournaments or have any impressive rankings on the leaderboard?

People like Vindicare, Luvnest, HelpingHans, DevM, Aimstrong, Shadowwada and etc absolutely should get invited because they have either tournament/competitive wins under their belt, or they know a lot about competitive balancing.

Aside from the obvious fact that competitive players who won tournaments should be invited, there is also the fact that Dawn of War 3 and the Company of Heroes franchise are different games essentially. Relic has a certain vision of where they want to take Dawn of War 3 i'm guessing, and possibly why they didn't invite every coh2 player who's on the leaderboard is because feedback can get a bit distorted if most of the people playing the beta are coh2 fans.

Another point to take into consideration is maybe they invited more competitive Dawn of War 1/2 players than competitive coh2 players(Don't know if this is true for certain), which would make sense since Dawn of War 3 is the 3rd game in the Dawn of War franchise.

There is still time though. Hopefully when the open beta(If they have one) starts, the number of people will be increased, and all of the legit competitive players will get in.

As someone who is far more ingrained in the DoW II community than with CoH 2, I am going to respectfully disagree with you Wada, and hopefully I won't come across as some protective little bitch.

The way the beta was done was via a sign up method, just like the alphas and betas that CoH 2 has had. Of course, there have also been some truly "closed" ones before where participants were pre-selected, but in the case of this one, everyone had an equal chance. This means that the reason the CoH 2 community was not represented in the beta was because they did not apply, so if you want people to be involved, they need to turn up in the first place to sign up.

There are some problems when it comes to this approach of course, many legitimately good and faithful players are left out, however, there are also some issues with using the approach of nepotism to choose candidates.

CoH 2 is a fundamentally different game from DoW III and its predecessors. Whilst this is seemingly obvious, there's a reason that I want to emphasise this: CoH 2 players (for the most part) do not understand DoW, and vice verse. There are a small number of instances where DoW II players graduated to CoH 2 such as HolyHammer and Vindicare, but for the most part CoH 2 players have not played the game or played it very little/at a low level.

Just because you are a bigshot in one community, this does not guarantee you understand the way every game is made. I imagine that Luvnest is incredibly well versed with CoH 2's ins and outs, but his lack of experience with DoW games is going to lead him to erroneous balance statements. The same would be said if I was invited to a CoH 3 beta: I haven't invested enough time into playing CoH and reaching a high level to have a useful opinion, despite understanding DoW's mechanics inside out. I imagine you would not appreciate having a bunch of people who were barely involved with CoH 2 come and shit all over CoH 3 because they want to introduce things that would never work.

To address your points as to why they should be invited however:

1) They may be potent players and are probably more aware of how to balance the game than others, but their suggestions will be grounded in their understanding of CoH. DoW III is very much like DoW I, which is different to any other Relic game, so if you have no experience there, you will be immediately shocked at how DoW III plays out. For example, I see people wanting to introduce retreat to DoW III. This is a terrible idea, because the game is not made with retreat functions in mind and would start to break the flow and balance of the game.

2) The esport scene will form regardless of whether CoH 2 players are involved, given that the ones who will end up at the top of the ladder will be the ones who simply have the drive to do best in the game, not the ones who took part in CoH 2's ESL just because they have that experience. Plenty of DoW players and other moba/SC players are familiar with how to get the ball rolling, so whilst I appreciate the need to mix and mingle the communities, DoW is not going to die because it didn't have some high up CoH 2 esports players in its beta.

Now, I agree and disagree with your next point for a few reasons. Firstly, I think Relic SHOULD have preselected some people for it and guaranteed them entry, because a lot of people went in very negative, and played the beta to great positive reaction. I agree certain members of both communities should be rewarded, but this argument has a double edge because the same happened in the DoW community. Caeltos, old high level player and founder of the largest DoW balance mod ever, Elite, did not even get into the beta. If Caeltos does not get in to the beta, I see no reason why a guy like The Machine should. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm sure his opinions would be interesting, but if Relic aren't taking the top tier of the DoW community, don't expect the CoH one to get that treatment. I really wish more people who have this viewerbase had got the beta, because then the game would appear a lot better. It is genuinely good, but because people can't play it they don't like what they see, however, the DoW community should be put first, because the divide between the two franchises means a lot of CoH players will not be inteested either way.

I am glad that you do acknowledge that the DoW pros should be included, but honestly, the CoH 2 community, unless the players adapt to these drastic changes the game has, will likely not like DoW III anyway, much in the way a lot don't like DoW II. Just because they are great here, it does not guarantee they will even understand the other.

Anyway, I don't entirely disagree, but I don't think the CoH 2 community is as important in regards to DoW III as you make it out to be.

And to everyone else, hate me, I'm a filthy DoW player.

Announcement with something on my end and Relic with including DoW 3 is coming soon. End of month, so stay tuned I suppose (it mainly effects content creators though, and a wee bit for top players). I'm trying to do things and are so are a small handful at Relic the problem is the top of the pyramid at Relic/Sega are only interested in making money as fast as possible, which severely handicaps things.

My point is, that you are mostly correct, but there are things being done behind the scenes as well. Hopefully it will pan out, but only time will tell.

Swift, I don't think we disagree at all as everything you said leads to similar conclusions.

In regards to CoH2 players not understand DoW3 or would come with preconceived notions, this is the point to putting them into the beta. They could provide a unique perspective on balance. From an esports perspective, this is why they should be in the beta; our pros should be given the beta so they can train & learn dow3. while their coh2 POV may make their thoughts on balance or strategy different or "wrong", they have the skill to become pro. For example, DevM is a master ranked LoL player. I've had a top 10 clan in the RTS WiC, Diamond Rank 1 in HotS & plat in LoL. If one is able to be pro in one type of game, their skills can transfer to others, especially of the same genre. Reynad started as a Magic player, Dr. Disrespect was a COD player, some of the overwatch pros come from tribes & TF2.

This leads to my point about the esports scene: while an esports scene will naturally develop, we should be trying to maximize growth. Instead of letting things grow naturally, we should be injecting steroids into it or pouring fuel onto the esports fire. DoW3 is where Relic's focus is so it will be the bigger esport scene compared to CoH2 (it helps to have the Warhammer 40k IP). For all intents and purposes, the coh2 esports scene is dead compared to DoW3. We shouldn't be wasting time when top tier players could be training and practicing. Also from the balance perspective, the pros could find if there is anything broken. The Frontline Network's beta tourney showed how insanely broken clowncars were so Relic had the info to patch it before/at launch. Also my point about hearthstone, hearthstone & overwatch had HUGE esports scenes before the games even came out. (the beta aspect is a bit problematic sine reynad & a seagull became as big as they did because they were in beta; they might not have been as big if they had to wait until release)

As for your point on inviting people, you merely need to reverse your perspective; instead of saying X shouldn't be invited because caeltos or *insert dow2 pro* wasn't, we should be saying they both should be invited. If there is a pro from dow2 or coh2 who wants to compete in the dow3 scene, they should be invited.

The major point is WE NEED PLAYERS. Look at coh2's playerbase. There hasn't been any new blood in a long time. Most of the top tier players have been playing since the beginning of coh2 or even coh1. The last group of pros were with me: momo4sho, talisman, and space hamster. While we had this new blood participate in ESL, we lost most people by warpaint and definitely afterwards. With the release of DoW3, it will be one of the highest, if not the highest, playerbase numbers so to retain & grow off of that size, esports & competitive scene needs to be strong out of the gate. Also we need the casters & tourney organizers. We had Ami and Romeo but they left because of the above problems. Lack of pro playerbase & lack of support from relic. When DoW3 comes out is when playerbase and relic's support will be at the highest so WE NEED TO BE CHARGING OUT OF THE MOTHAFOOKING GATE!

@Relic, since they might not see the point of "esports", there is a simple equation of big esports = big $$$. Look at League of Legends, they produce content at a extremely high rate because of their esports scene. The bigger your esports scene leads to the game getting bigger which leads to bigger money. I've said before that Relic's problem is their leadership and, by extension culture. They live in a bygone-era where you came out with a kool single player & a casual funz multiplayer but we live in a new world, an esports world. They rather cling to the past and make a "good" game instead of going outside their comfort zone. IF YOU WANT TO HUNT WITH THE BIG DOGS AND PEE IN THE TALL GRASS, you have to go outside your comfort zone.

Lastly, the coh2 pros & casters should have been invited into the beta because of their year(s) of service since it would be an easy way to show appreciation. If you watch my stream, you know i do a joke about how me or tightrope or whoever hasn't gotten a relic/coh2 t-shirt even though we've done so much. Juxtaposed, Excessive Profanity streamed the coh2 for 1-2 weeks and got a large carepackage: signed copy of the game & poster and other swag. I'm not against giving streamers free stuff to incentivize them to play the game thus get more exposure but I have a problem when a dude who streamed the game for a week got shit tons more than a lot of our dedicated community members. I had a longer response on the dow3 forum about the idea of loyalty & fairness but i think you guys get my point.

In closing, I am the shadowwada and we need more real mothafuckas like me if we want the #ESPORTS dream.

Well, that's a fair enough angle to take on it, and the esports scene should definitely be pushed. Largest problem I see with bunching DoW and CoH 2 pros together is a lot of swinging dicks colliding.

Relic and "Top Players" historically don't mix well as they usually don't like the feedback they get from them.

Does it matter?

DoWIII is looking like it's going to bomb hard.

Except unlike CoH2, which bombed due to the demented DLC practices and the blatant balance failure issues, DoWIII looks like it's going to bomb purely by virtue of what it's meant to be, not just what it actually turns out to be practically in terms of design/balance issues.

That four-man review/interview on the front page really hit me hard when comparisons to a MOBA started flying around and being supported by multiple people's perceptions of the gameplay...

Relic and "Top Players" historically don't mix well as they usually don't like the feedback they get from them.

True that

Relic don't advertise well, they hold their cards to their chest until the very last minute and their games are in a shocking state (from a competitive point of view) on release.

Their games get improved gradually with many patches but first impressions count, if the hook isn't there on day one then people aren't gonna stay about or even come back.

I've loved all of Relic's previous releases but if that DoW3 beta (it was booty butt cheeks) is anything to go by it's just gonna be history repeating itself. Unless they have a completely different game hidden away in time for release in April.

Dawn of War III is doomed to fail, this trend started with COH 2 after THQ's departure.

Relic went away from the love, time and devotion they used to pour into their previous games, and under SEGA's new leadership were only aimed at making a profit while losing their most loyal and hardcore fans.

The game is a joke and I can't even really call it an RTS game anymore because it has a HUGE fucking influence from MOBA games such as LoL, Dota and Heroes of the Storm, plus their graphics, which again, started with CoH 2.

Excuse me but fuck your competitive e-sports MOBA bullshit, I like many other Dawn of War fans and players want a combination of DoW and DoW II being DoW III, not an RTS with MOBA elements, we want our cover system back for which Relic is notorious for, not the stupid bubble mechanic, we don't want invisible bushes and certainly want our old Annihilation and VP modes back and not be only limited to the MOBA 3 lane destroy the enemy's core bullshit mode.

We want a tactical games set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe and abiding to the MOBA players will only doom the franchise, even Blizzard made a dedicated MOBA game instead of transforming StarCraft into one, which they could have done.

With all due respect Wada I think its time to drop the whole coh esports dream. Relic had their chance and they blew it, and the only way I can see coh esports happening is if another coh game is released, the playerbase is just far too low right now.

There is always hope for Dow3 esports hopefully relic learn from their mistakes, you make good points but I don't think they are gonna be heard unless you get in contact with them by email. Even then I doubt they will take it into much consideration.

I don't get the arguments that top coh players couldn't comment on a game because it's mechanics are different. The key skill of a top player (in any game) is that of adaptability, to rapidly learn and adapt either to a new game, to explore and experiment and also react and adapt to an opponent. Look at Devm as a perfect example.

With all due respect Wada I think its time to drop the whole coh esports dream. Relic had their chance and they blew it, and the only way I can see coh esports happening is if another coh game is released, the playerbase is just far too low right now.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1465880926/coh2-grand-championship-series

I mean, nothing is impossible and the community seems to want it...
I cant stop feeling that the people that dont want this to happen are some casual 4v4 players, for some odd reason.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1465880926/coh2-grand-championship-series

I mean, nothing is impossible and the community seems to want it...
I cant stop feeling that the people that dont want this to happen are some casual 4v4 players, for some odd reason.

There's more of them on the official forums then I thought.

Relic and "Top Players" historically don't mix well as they usually don't like the feedback they get from them.

and proceed to ignore all/most the feedbacks or twist them in the final versions as they see fit.

Relic and "Top Players" historically don't mix well as they usually don't like the feedback they get from them.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game"