need help against OKW as Soviets

In this game I suffer the usual problem with OKW, I cant ever seem to get the initiative going, although this was different as I went penals and a sniper instead of Maxim and cons mix exactly the same happened, just getting cut off and losing map control due to an inability to gain a bit of map, admittedly this game didn't go as badly as usual as I was still intact when the KT arrived, but to be honest it was still the same out come, It was hard to actually play the way I wanted to as victory points were always counting down badly so I had little choice but to go for VP's most the game. I'm just not sure what to do about this and its just about every OKW game, I was particularly happy with this game in the fact I came closer than usual to breaking out a little.

https://www.coh2.org/replay/59751/need-help-with-controlling-okw-as-soviets-still-lol/page/1#post_id597120

I took a look at your replay since I have nothing to do ... and yeah, take this review if you think it's fine enough, but still, maybe a strategist would do it better (In the spoiler).

Show Spoiler

Hello GenMe, I´m really sorry for late response.

Is Williams review good enaught for your or you need someone from strategic section to review as well ?

Hector

If not i would like to get stuck in and review something!

If not i would like to get stuck in and review something!

You can review it everytime.

But there is a rule that player must be either satisfied with review from non-strategist member or get at least 1 review from strategist member

Feel free to add your review as well.

PS: Do not forget to color the thread if you take it.

I'll take it!

Right so i'll start by saying that Soviets are a very powerful faction capable of dealing with any situation because they have such a diverse range of tools at their disposal. While it may seem like OKW have the most powerful units, they also (as a faction) have very prominent weaknesses; they have poor garrison clearing abilities, weak anti-tank options in the early game, and limited indirect fire. As such OKW players HATE dealing with buildings, early vehicles and entrenched positions.

Now down to your game!

At the start you split up your forces. Firstly you captured points that were not connected to your base; giving you no income. This is fine as long as you follow it up quickly with another unit to connect it.

Against OKW splitting up too much is harmful as the Sturm pios can win pretty much any engagement 1 on 1 at the start of a match. Better to group your units to quickly capture one side of the map. Better some than none.

Using a satchel charge against infantry is ALWAYS risky as it has such a long fuse. It is also a very expensive ability. If you see an MG just starting to set up then you have enough time to wipe it with a satchel. Otherwise don't bother. Spend that muni on a flamer!

Indeed you were far too focused on getting map! Map comes naturally from winning fights. Win the fight first, then capture the map! Your enemy cant out cap you or cut you off if his units are in base healing/reinforcing.

The sniper is an amazingly powerful unit but it must be used carefully, you need to look after it like you would a winning lottery ticket! I saw you capping with it which is a terrible waste of its time if you are not imminently about to lose to vp's. ALWAYS have it killing something if you can and ALWAYS have a supporting unit nearby to help it, preferably with AT nades; to stop a chasing vehicle.

The Maxims helped you but i think an earlier t-70 would have helped you more. Most OKW players go for the Med HQ but if they get good fuel control early game there is a MUCH stronger chance they will go Luches. Keep in mind that if OKW gets good map they you have to prepare for a Luches unless you know they have gone med HQ. You can tell this by either scouting their base or by seeing if their units are all full health.

Also at one point you had guards idle in the center on the map. It is not always a good idea to be aggressive all the time, and i know not everyone can micro all their units at once, but if you are going to leave a unit idle put them in cover or a garrison somewhere useful. Remember that garrisons give increased line of sight too!

Keep track of your enemies unit composition. The OKW player had a very mobile build, only one team weapon and that was a raketten. Thus the mortar was rather useless. Indeed you also had access to penals with flamers so it wasn't like you needed the garrison clearing ether, think about what you need and what the enemy has before you make a unit.

At one point in the game you were moving your at gun around to support your T-70, that was really good! the more combined arms you use the better! Having the AT nade equipped con with guards, a maxim, a T-70 and an AT gun working together can take on almost anything! Remember that this game isn't all about speed, the best players may be quick but players like Noggano (who has won tournaments) plays a LOT slower than most. Take the time to consider your options and correctly place units. Try and think ahead as to what your opponent will do, remember he wants the same things as you!

The SU-76 was too little too late, you already had guards and 2 AT guns, there was nothing that tank really added to your composition. Better would have been to tech to a T-34-76. Don't underestimate this tank! It's great!

Also I don't know if you already do but play all the factions, this is a great way to learn their strengths and weaknesses.

I don't think the other guy was more skilled than you, I think what you are lacking is the mind-set. Work on calming yourself down and thinking though what you are doing. Playing with direction and being decisive with your strategy is the best way to win games.

Hope this helps!

Finndeed

Right so i'll start by saying that Soviets are a very powerful faction capable of dealing with any situation because they have such a diverse range of tools at their disposal. While it may seem like OKW have the most powerful units, they also (as a faction) have very prominent weaknesses; they have poor garrison clearing abilities, weak anti-tank options in the early game, and limited indirect fire. As such OKW players HATE dealing with buildings, early vehicles and entrenched positions.

Now down to your game!

At the start you split up your forces. Firstly you captured points that were not connected to your base; giving you no income. This is fine as long as you follow it up quickly with another unit to connect it.

Against OKW splitting up too much is harmful as the Sturm pios can win pretty much any engagement 1 on 1 at the start of a match. Better to group your units to quickly capture one side of the map. Better some than none.

Using a satchel charge against infantry is ALWAYS risky as it has such a long fuse. It is also a very expensive ability. If you see an MG just starting to set up then you have enough time to wipe it with a satchel. Otherwise don't bother. Spend that muni on a flamer!

Indeed you were far too focused on getting map! Map comes naturally from winning fights. Win the fight first, then capture the map! Your enemy cant out cap you or cut you off if his units are in base healing/reinforcing.

The sniper is an amazingly powerful unit but it must be used carefully, you need to look after it like you would a winning lottery ticket! I saw you capping with it which is a terrible waste of its time if you are not imminently about to lose to vp's. ALWAYS have it killing something if you can and ALWAYS have a supporting unit nearby to help it, preferably with AT nades; to stop a chasing vehicle.

The Maxims helped you but i think an earlier t-70 would have helped you more. Most OKW players go for the Med HQ but if they get good fuel control early game there is a MUCH stronger chance they will go Luches. Keep in mind that if OKW gets good map they you have to prepare for a Luches unless you know they have gone med HQ. You can tell this by either scouting their base or by seeing if their units are all full health.

Also at one point you had guards idle in the center on the map. It is not always a good idea to be aggressive all the time, and i know not everyone can micro all their units at once, but if you are going to leave a unit idle put them in cover or a garrison somewhere useful. Remember that garrisons give increased line of sight too!

Keep track of your enemies unit composition. The OKW player had a very mobile build, only one team weapon and that was a raketten. Thus the mortar was rather useless. Indeed you also had access to penals with flamers so it wasn't like you needed the garrison clearing ether, think about what you need and what the enemy has before you make a unit.

At one point in the game you were moving your at gun around to support your T-70, that was really good! the more combined arms you use the better! Having the AT nade equipped con with guards, a maxim, a T-70 and an AT gun working together can take on almost anything! Remember that this game isn't all about speed, the best players may be quick but players like Noggano (who has won tournaments) plays a LOT slower than most. Take the time to consider your options and correctly place units. Try and think ahead as to what your opponent will do, remember he wants the same things as you!

The SU-76 was too little too late, you already had guards and 2 AT guns, there was nothing that tank really added to your composition. Better would have been to tech to a T-34-76. Don't underestimate this tank! It's great!

Also I don't know if you already do but play all the factions, this is a great way to learn their strengths and weaknesses.

I don't think the other guy was more skilled than you, I think what you are lacking is the mind-set. Work on calming yourself down and thinking though what you are doing. Playing with direction and being decisive with your strategy is the best way to win games.

Hope this helps!

Finndeed

fair assessment, I think I do go in pre-disposed to,losing against OKW, as it happens so often, I don't think I had the resources to go T34 though, which is why I went double Zis, the SU 76 was to add a little bit of mobility to my AT and for a little bit of free artillery, I will take what you said onboard and try to bunch up my forces a bit more, I find myself very quickly backed in to a defensive situation against OKW, hence why I started producing defensive, I think the problem is I don't trust my infantry.

I tried to consolidate my forces and managed to secure a fuel point because of it, but I was still facing off two panthers by the time my T34-76 arrived, sniper did well and survived the whole game though, did spot an idle unit, I need to sort that out, mind you he had even more idle units than I did, I think I may just have to live with the fact I'm useless at this game

I tried to consolidate my forces and managed to secure a fuel point because of it, but I was still facing off two panthers by the time my T34-76 arrived, sniper did well and survived the whole game though, did spot an idle unit, I need to sort that out, mind you he had even more idle units than I did, I think I may just have to live with the fact I'm useless at this game

Oh don't be so negative about yourself, man! You're better than that, i'm sure. Take it from a person who lost to you in a fair fight and respect your playstyle, you aren't useless. All you need was to have a clear vision of what you're going to do. One of the most important things you have to do in every single game is to at least have a stable field control, which means that early on, consolidate your men to one area and fight for it! That's your first target and your battle ground cause only from there will you advance. The OKW player in this match actually not that strong. You were just lack of a clear plan, which led to the collapse of your field presence and the losses of your men. Just have a tactic in your mind before you enter the match then work around it.

i wasn't being negative, I'm totally ok with it, but yeah my weakness is fighting OKW so I will make a few adjustments, I think switching to penals has been a big killer as well, need to maybe abandom that as it doesn't suit my playstyle, I was looking back over a few replays and even games I win my penal squads are not doing a great joB, also I'm fine with accepting OKW will win games, because I can be competitive against Ost, so it is what it is, my problem with OKW is dislodging them from positions, I think their early game advantages and more powerful units sort of throws my play style, I literally cant see where the window of opportunity is.

fair assessment, I think I do go in pre-disposed to,losing against OKW, as it happens so often, I don't think I had the resources to go T34 though, which is why I went double Zis, the SU 76 was to add a little bit of mobility to my AT and for a little bit of free artillery, I will take what you said onboard and try to bunch up my forces a bit more, I find myself very quickly backed in to a defensive situation against OKW, hence why I started producing defensive, I think the problem is I don't trust my infantry.

Some of the advice i gave was to help you once you advance into fighting more skillful players. Your sniper survived so long partly because your opponent didn't capitalise on your mistakes. When you were microing the sniper you did pretty well with it but you also left it vulnerable from time to time. Also that map isn't very good for snipers, better to have gotten another one or two penals and add a M3 into the mix.

Well the arty from the SU-76 is good but again it wasn't quite what you needed, indirect fire vs mobile infantry and a light tank :/

On that map you can get harshly cut off, the buildings are key to holding territory on the map. Use the flamers to force your enemy out and then get in, instant superior position.

If you want more help feel free to post more replays! Sorry if i am nit picking but you have potential to be a lot better!

Some of the advice i gave was to help you once you advance into fighting more skillful players. Your sniper survived so long partly because your opponent didn't capitalise on your mistakes. When you were microing the sniper you did pretty well with it but you also left it vulnerable from time to time. Also that map isn't very good for snipers, better to have gotten another one or two penals and add a M3 into the mix.

Well the arty from the SU-76 is good but again it wasn't quite what you needed, indirect fire vs mobile infantry and a light tank :/

On that map you can get harshly cut off, the buildings are key to holding territory on the map. Use the flamers to force your enemy out and then get in, instant superior position.

If you want more help feel free to post more replays! Sorry if i am nit picking but you have potential to be a lot better!

thankyou for being kind, another issue I have to resolve is being crap at keyboard short cuts thats a huge shortcoming when facing better players .. on the SU76 I dont think I had the fuel for tech and anything heavier.

one more question, why do you think OKW has a hard time clearing garrisoned units? .. they have flame nade, 7.5 cm leichtes and flame throwers as a commander option?

Flame nades can't be used until a tech structure is fully built. LeIG is complete crap against garrisoned units, and doesn't warrent its 330 manpower cost and 9 popcap for its killing power. You have to lock in firestorm to even have access to flamethrowers for sturms, which not only means you can no longer grab a sweeper or schreck but also means you're locked into a submeta commander with no callins meaning you're forced to tech. If your opponet skips tech with callins you're already at a disadvantage. Additionally the luchs and flak HT deal barely any damage to garrisoned units and stukas are to expensive to go for in 1v1s primarily. Also MG34 is worst MG in the game.

Flame nades can't be used until a tech structure is fully built. LeIG is complete crap against garrisoned units, and doesn't warrent its 330 manpower cost and 9 popcap for its killing power. You have to lock in firestorm to even have access to flamethrowers for sturms, which not only means you can no longer grab a sweeper or schreck but also means you're locked into a submeta commander with no callins meaning you're forced to tech. If your opponet skips tech with callins you're already at a disadvantage. Additionally the luchs and flak HT deal barely any damage to garrisoned units and stukas are to expensive to go for in 1v1s primarily. Also MG34 is worst MG in the game.

the Leig is an amazing weapon, if I manage to steal one its a game changer, its got great rate of fire and generally rack up an amazing amount of kills with its barage ability, also for soviets to get flame nades you have to tie yourself to conscripts, which have horrible sub par accuracy and are a manpower drain against OKW inf, It really isn't long before OKW get a tech centre.

I have at least scored a victory against a pretty good OKW player, well good to my standards anyway, I tried to implement my brain a little more in this one and not over react to the early OKW cut off, I went back to the standard tier 2 mixed arms game, feel free to pick on me, the fact it was a win doesn't mean I did everything right, but it gives you a chance to scrutinise me when stuffs going better, I still take to long to reinforce, that's something I struggle with micro wise.


https://www.coh2.org/replay/59800/i-actually-beat-okw-for-me-that-s-special-lol

I have at least scored a victory against a pretty good OKW player, well good to my standards anyway, I tried to implement my brain a little more in this one and not over react to the early OKW cut off, I went back to the standard tier 2 mixed arms game, feel free to pick on me, the fact it was a win doesn't mean I did everything right, but it gives you a chance to scrutinise me when stuffs going better, I still take to long to reinforce, that's something I struggle with micro wise.


https://www.coh2.org/replay/59800/i-actually-beat-okw-for-me-that-s-special-lol

I would be happy to give it a look for you but could i just ask you to plop the replay into this forum subsection? Just to keep things neat and tidy

Also OKW has a hard time countering persistent garrison use. You are right in that OKW have flame nades and they are fine at clearing out a unit that gets into a building once in a while, but, if an OKW player is up against someone who uses garrisons a lot on a map that is dominated by garrisons then they have to constantly use muni to remove a unit from a garrison. That is a massive muni drain and it also means the Volk that threw the nade cant get into the garrison itself without getting burnt. A flamer is by far a better option because its a one time by and you can stop burning the building as soon as the enemy leave.

The Leig is a good (but expensive) bit of arty but it is notoriously bad at targeting units in garrisons, it also has the added disadvantage of having a relatively small AOE meaning units in garrisons (which tend to be spread out) suffer minimal damage. The small AOE also means it doesn't do much damage to the building itself.

I simply don't know how to post replays here, in fact I didn't know you could, I will investigate, the leig in this replay scores over 50 kills, although I will concede it takes time to damage garrisoned units.

I simply don't know how to post replays here, in fact I didn't know you could, I will investigate, the leig in this replay scores over 50 kills, although I will concede it takes time to damage garrisoned units.

When in the "new reply" box and you're constructing your response, look at the far right of the tools bar and you'll see a red star. This star is the "insert replay" function. Click it, insert the replay URL that you've copied from the replay section you want to insert. Click done.

Using the quick reply box is handy when you don't want the tools of the full reply box,
but full reply box > quick reply box.