Blueprints for making OKW balance possible.

OberKommando West having being designed, redesigned, broken, fixed, and refixed, is in a little convoluted a position in CoH2 as far as the factions go. There are many ways CoH2's faction design and balance could've gone, and plenty of ways it could go.

In light of some recent discussions on OKW and the post-WBP world of CoH2 I thought I'd offer some blueprints for putting OKW into a strong, but balanced position. I offer explanations and reasoning, and will be happy to discuss things. These ideas are very much a rough draft.

After WBP hits, I intend to build a(nother) mod that will implement some form of these ideas to explore. Mod Tools are also being glitchy, and I'm hoping that'll be fixed once WBP is over. Until then, I figure I'd offer them up for interested eyes and minds.

When you look at the grand scheme of things I don't think it's all that radical of a set of ideas.

First and foremost: fixing OKW T0.

-Allow HQ to upgrade either medics or repair pios. (Could also allow OKW T1 and T2 to research either medics or repair pios.)
-Swap the MG34 requirements to the Raketenwerfer. (Alternately, replace the Raketen with a Pak39. Raketens make for a good/better doctrinal unit TBH.)
-Sturmpioneers to get smoke grenades instead of panzerschrecks. Either a 30(ish) muni upgrade to unlock smoke grenade, and the grenade costs 15 muni, or no unlock and the smoke grenade costs 30/35 muni.
-No unlock requirements for panzerfaust. With AT delayed for OKW, Panzerfausts should be readily available... (to drain those munis.)
-Give volks vet 4 panzerfaust damage (160 instead of 120) but reduce the snare threshold to 25% instead of 75%. Increase snare threshold to normal at vet 4. This makes them more dangerous for light vehicles without making them as large a threat against tanks.
-Increase volks panzerfaust range. Something like 5 or 10. (Less snaring, more potential finishing shot.)
-Volksgrenadiers should exchange their remaining rifles for mp40s when getting StGs. They need their upgrade to give them a real role change that works with Obers more than Sturms. And this arguably synergizes even better with Sturms armed with smoke instead of schrecks. (IMO 5 MP40s or 4 and 1 StG are best.)

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So far: New HQ upgrade, switch the requirements of two units, change two units upgrades, and adjust OKW's panzerfaust. Not the craziest set of changes, but now the fate of the panzerschreck remains.

From here there are two good routes I think to go down:

First the 'safe' route.

Obers get x2 panzerschreck upgrade. (Could also give them Panzerfausts with vet.)
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Additionally:
Reduce T1 FRP upgrade to 200mp.
Give ISGs a free (or 15 muni) smoke barrage.
KT call-in to require 100mp 20-40 fuel upgrade from HQ, unlocked only when all 3 tiers are built and alive.

Then the not so 'safe' routes: (Tier adjustment and giving OKW some unit adjustments.)

Reduce T1 FRP to 200 mp and/or allow any Truck HQ to become a FRP after it is research. (Designating an allied HQ as a retreat point would be lovely for all factions in the game IMO.)
250 Halftrack as stock unit. No reinforcing, but able to upgrade into Mortar Halftrack. (Alternately, just a MortarHT for OKW.)
Could possibly replace OKW Panzer 4 with Stubnose P4.
Reduce Obersoldaten cost to 360 or even the 320-340 range and reduce their performance accordingly. They should be made to be closer to Stormtroopers in cost and performance.
Obers get x2 panzerschreck upgrade. Panzerfaust with vet 1. (Maybe instead of the deathsmoke grenade, as fun as it is.)
Give ISGs a free (or 15 muni) smoke barrage.
KT call-in 100mp 20-40 fuel upgrade.

Tier Version 1:
T0: Volks, Sturmpioneers, Kubelwagen, MG34
T1/2:Raketenwerfer
T1: ISG, FlakHT, IR HT, Obers
T2: Puma, Luchs, Stub P4, Mortar HT
T3: Panther, JP4, Stuka zu Fuss, (Unlocks Obers LMG34)

Tier Version 2:
T0: Volks, Sturmpioneers, Kubelwagen, MG34
T1: ISG, FlakHT, IR HT, Raketenwerfer (Pak39?)
T2: Puma, Luchs, Obers, Mortar HT
T3: Panther, JP4, Stuka zu Fuss, Panzer 4 (Stub?)
(Unlocks Obers LMG34)

Each tech tier has indirect fire and access to a form of AT.
T3 cost could be reduced 40-80 fuel and have the Flak gun and Panther disabled. A 40-80 fuel upgrade to activate the Flak could unlock the Panther.
Resource conversion could possibly make a comeback for OKW, but through the HQ, and locked through an HQ upgrade.
HQ could possibly also contain an upgrade that unlocks panzerfausts for Volks and/or Obers.

(More of an aside point: FlakHT gun performance could be adjusted to mirror USF AAHT, remove or greatly reduce 'setup' time on gun, simply have the requirement be that it not be moving to fire. Might benefit the unit's function no matter what other changes occur.)

And so there's my set of blueprints for making OKW a workable faction. Feel free to pick it apart or discuss it. I'll be building an OKW redesign mod based off these ideas (and the results of any debate) once WBP hits.

I'd add grenades being techable in the HQ like USF instead of free after tech. Garrison issues will still occur with no way to clear them without grenades. Why the stub p4 in place of the standard p4? The OKW p4 is actually pretty good at its job, could use a slight cost reduction and OKW just need a medium tank designated for infantry like the ostwind that is non doctrinal. If obers are nerfed down to the 360 or 320-340 like you said depending on the balance changes OKW may have a difficult time stopping CQC units of high cost. Shocks and rangers with thompsons come to mind. Unsure about the pfaust changes. I assume they're going to be the 25 muni pfaust from WBP instead of the current 35. I don't see the reason behind the KT nerf unless it's going to be buffed respectivly. Tank destroyers can deal with the KT easily as long as they're not USF. Other than that interesting changes, unsure how they'd play out but definatly food for thought.

Why the stub p4 in place of the standard p4?

The reason for the Stub P4 is to let it be in T2. It allows OKW to have a tank with strong AI capabilities, like the P4 already has, but prevent it from being able to hurt heavier tanks. A Panzer 4 in the Flak HQ probably doesn't work with stub.

If obers are nerfed down to the 360 or 320-340 like you said depending on the balance changes OKW may have a difficult time stopping CQC units of high cost. Shocks and rangers with thompsons come to mind.

If Volks exchange rifles for MP40s, they will be more effective at CQC. Infantry with rifles are food for SMGs.

Unsure about the pfaust changes. I assume they're going to be the 25 muni pfaust from WBP instead of the current 35.

This assumes a 35 muni panzerfaust.

I don't see the reason behind the KT nerf unless it's going to be buffed respectivly. Tank destroyers can deal with the KT easily as long as they're not USF. Other than that interesting changes, unsure how they'd play out but definatly food for thought.

This is mostly directly at the WBP team than anything. I dunno if it's a worthwhile change.

Noobs are broken. Okw is not. Playercard.
They know what to add Your text.. its not your bussiness.

The reason for the Stub P4 is to let it be in T2. It allows OKW to have a tank with strong AI capabilities, like the P4 already has, but prevent it from being able to hurt heavier tanks. A Panzer 4 in the Flak HQ probably doesn't work with stub.

I assume the stub p4 would just be an AI version of the p4 still with medium armor and health, because the luchs is also in that same tier. If so then great job, however with rear armor being perticularly weak now you could run into t2 into stub p4 spam if the proper care is not taken with balance. Essentially the problem with Stug Es now except for the fact they're not callins. May just be wiser to place on the t3 and keep it available prior to flak HQ/panther upgrade.

Also you do have the MP40 volks upgrade and maybe an STG which is fine, but if volks remain at the 250 manpower mark and their manpower to power ratio remains the same, higher manpower CQC units may run them over. Especially in map dependant scenarios.

This looks like a very interesting design. Most of all this looks like an actual design, rather than a set of nerfs/buffs.

I particularly like the 250-into-mortarHT idea. This solves a lot of issues with OKW's current design:
- lack of mobile indirect fire (yeah, I know what ISG vet2 does)
- lack of transport utility for a faction that's supposed to be aggressive.

I don't know if you, or anybody else knows if it's possible to have infantry mounted on the 250 throw smoke grenades >.>

I'm a bit perplexed about lumping the stubby P4 together in the same tier with Luchs. Given that both are supposed to be anti-infantry, why would you pick one over the other? On the other hand, I can clearly see that putting a decent AI-related unit in T2 makes backteching to T2 all that much more enticing.

The other question I have, is what role do you have envisioned for the ISG, if OKW is to get access to the mortar halftrack? Currently, the ISG is super-useless vs a mobile force, whereas it's super-annoying when spammed and camped.

Noobs are broken. Okw is not. Playercard.
They know what to add Your text.. its not your bussiness.

Can't seem to contribute to any discussions, can you?

Tier Version 1:
T0: Volks, Sturmpioneers, Kubelwagen, MG34
T1/2:Raketenwerfer
T1: ISG, FlakHT, IR HT, Obers
T2: Puma, Luchs, Stub P4, Mortar HT
T3: Panther, JP4, Stuka zu Fuss, (Unlocks Obers LMG34)

This version looks better than the other, because picking T1 or T2 actually has an advantage and disadvantage: Either be able to get Ober early for some vetting purposes, support heavy infantry plays but limited your access to LVs and mobile reinforcement platform (It should be able to reinforce, actually, to persuade people to a more aggressive play); or go full on LVs (There's no need for the Stub P4 in T2, actually, leave the P4 in T3 as it is) and pressure them. 

Tier Version 2:
T0: Volks, Sturmpioneers, Kubelwagen, MG34
T1: ISG, FlakHT, IR HT, Raketenwerfer (Pak39?)
T2: Puma, Luchs, Obers, Mortar HT
T3: Panther, JP4, Stuka zu Fuss, Panzer 4 (Stub?)
(Unlocks Obers LMG34)

This one is kinda weird cause basically, why would you even want to go T1 anyways? Healing at base already, Elite infantry, indirect-fire and LVs are all available at T2 while T1 is basically just very lackluster compared to T2.‎ Yeah you can't get Raketen anymore from T0 but Puma and Obers with Schrecks are always there to cover and if not, even better than Raketen (You can always get 2 Obers, 1 with Schrecks, 1 with LMG34, the same way you get Pzgrens)‎
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I don't know if you, or anybody else knows if it's possible to have infantry mounted on the 250 throw smoke grenades >.>

Could be a modified version of tank nades only enabled when units with smoke nades garrison. I dunno though.

I'm a bit perplexed about lumping the stubby P4 together in the same tier with Luchs. Given that both are supposed to be anti-infantry, why would you pick one over the other? On the other hand, I can clearly see that putting a decent AI-related unit in T2 makes backteching to T2 all that much more enticing.

That's something I've juggled with. The T2 Stubby idea is a holdover from an older mod I made that incorporated Battle Phases with OKW. It required the final battle phase in that.

In this sense I'd have the P4 retain most of the fuel cost, or be reduced to around 100. The Luchs could even be cheaper. More of a Quad M5 v T70 type relationship. Although I do agree that the cost alone may not be enough though to keep the P4 from overshadowing.

The other question I have, is what role do you have envisioned for the ISG, if OKW is to get access to the mortar halftrack? Currently, the ISG is super-useless vs a mobile force, whereas it's super-annoying when spammed and camped.

The ISG would be indirect fire that costs only manpower, which is important. The smoke barrage would be a perk. (I'm not sure if the MortarHT would have incendiary barrage or smoke or not.) To be honest I'd want to see it be cheaper than 330 to more like 280 or 300. But going back, I have always favored the Pak Howie and ISG being mobile artillery with high range and good barrages. I have also leaned towards removing their autofire and having them be more like weak ML-20s/LeFHs that can move faster than a stuka strike's AoE.

Oh yeah, about the Volks' upgrade, giving them full-on MP40s is a great idea. However, have you consider their veterancy? Cause if you look at it, they aren't meant to be assault unit (Low RA buffs, but high accuracy increase, which were meant for long-range units, rather than CQC unit). For the MP40s upgrade to work, you need to relook at their vet, especially their RA buffs through vet (0.8 is lowest they can get, and that's not very good for CQC)‎

Oh yeah, about the Volks' upgrade, giving them full-on MP40s is a great idea. However, how you consider their veterancy? Cause if you look at it, they aren't meant to be assault unit (Low RA buffs, but high accuracy increase, which were meant for long-range units, rather than CQC unit). For the MP40s upgrade to work, you need to relook at their vet, especially their RA buffs through vet (0.8 is lowest they can get, and that's not very good for CQC)‎

True, their RA may not be the best, but neither are assault grens. Volks at least get fausts and can be given smoke cover by sturms in this scenario. Also, the idea is that Obers, being cheaper, might have a larger role, alongside a more available MG34. The volks would be more 'defenders of the MG' than assault units.

V1:There's no need for the Stub P4 in T2, actually, leave the P4 in T3 as it is) and pressure them.

Fair point. I like the Stub P4, but perhaps too much for PE nostalgia reasons. I still feel like a stock Stub P4 has a role in this game though. But then again... Hotchkiss.

This one is kinda weird cause basically, why would you even want to go T1 anyways? Healing at base already, Elite infantry, indirect-fire and LVs are all available at T2 while T1 is basically just very lackluster compared to T2.‎ Yeah you can't get Raketen anymore from T0 but Puma and Obers with Schrecks are always there to cover and if not, even better than Raketen (You can always get 2 Obers, 1 with Schrecks, 1 with LMG34, the same way you get Pzgrens)‎
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Hence the Pak39 suggestion. The Raketen may not be so worth it. But the T1 would still have the Forward Retreat Point unlock. If anything in this version adjusting the cost of T1 down and T2 up would be warranted. (Or even making OKW tech go T1>T2>T3... But I'd rather give OKW a fourth tier over that.)

But the idea here is that T2 is very much an appealing option. But Pumas and Panzerschrecks cost fuel and munitions. Your T2 anti-tank is much harder to replace if lost. Raketens (or Paks) are manpower only, which can be pretty important.

True, their RA may not be the best, but neither are assault grens. Volks at least get fausts and can be given smoke cover by sturms in this scenario. Also, the idea is that Obers, being cheaper, might have a larger role, alongside a more available MG34. The volks would be more 'defenders of the MG' than assault units.

In that case, that would works quite dandy. I once proposed similar changes to Volks, to make them having better synergy with Obers, but I never really think of 5 MP40s (Just 3 actually). 

About the T2, I don't know man. Like, I'm the man of Obers. I need my Obers on the field and in my case, I would take T2, get Obers and Puma and maybe the Mortar HT along the way. Without Obers, OKW will have a hard time fighting infantry warfare late-game, in my opinion so yeah, maybe just me, but I still think the second version would renders T1 quite useless compared to T2.‎

About the T2, I don't know man. Like, I'm the man of Obers. I need my Obers on the field and in my case, I would take T2, get Obers and Puma and maybe the Mortar HT along the way. Without Obers, OKW will have a hard time fighting infantry warfare late-game, in my opinion so yeah, maybe just me, but I still think the second version would renders T1 quite useless compared to T2.‎

I juggled with the FlakHT being in T2 and Obers in T1. Which may be more optimal. The thing is a T2 FlakHT is kind of useless. OKW tiers and unit composition are such that some unit ends up being in a terribly awkward position.

The other option is the 250 Halftrack be available in T1 which then has to upgrade into a mortar HT. But then the ISG really gets overshadowed. Also the IR HT is kind of a lump of a unit to fit into the tiers.

I may end up going with a sorta version 1.5:

T0: Volks, Sturmpioneers, Kubelwagen, MG34
T1/2:Raketenwerfer
T1: ISG, FlakHT, IR HT, Obers
T2: Puma, Luchs, Mortar HT
T3: Panther, JP4, Panzer 4, Stuka zu Fuss, (Unlocks Obers LMG34)

I hate to be one of those "it's unnecessary" annoying people but this time I feel it's called for.

I play OKW extensively and I feel with just some minor balances they could be a great faction again.

- Just tone down the idiotically overpowered Comet for the British, which should balance out the Panther.
- Make the Flak Half track set up time 0, like every other team.
- Give field gun smoke shells to help clear out garisons.
- Fix the stormtropper accuracy on SturmPios with SHreks (or allow 2 upgrade like Panzer Grens).
- Balance the Panzer 2 so it's viable against Stuart/AEC/T70 like every other light tank.

And a maybe would be to improve the moving accuracy of the P4, it can't hit anything if it isn't sitting perfectly still.


That's it. I really feel it wouldn't be that complicated. God knows how Relic have taken so long to do some basic tweaks.

I don´t know why but your faction feels like panzerelite put together with vcoh wehrmacht

OKW IS balanced. So leave it alone.

Just make the püüüchen not missing all the time and the Panther better

Interesting, but i see some design problems:
1. If SdKfz 250 will be added to the OKW, it need to add all OKW camoflages to it's model.
2. Second problem (if this unit going to have MG 34/42 before Mortar upgrade) - MG going to fly over the model, because there is no mount for it.
3. Pak 39 (idk what is it, have found information only about capture russisn 76mm guns) require a new model.
I am sorry, but Relic is lazy in creating of new models. They even choose to use old M5 HT(because it has M45 turret in the model) for USF instead of upgrade new M3 HT, and add to it this M45 turret.

if OKW get a smoke abiltiy/ or something else to can help themself vs MG spamer...would be a good start.

This eliminates all the disadvantages, what OKW have and make them flawless. And also makes Ost useless (MG from start, Obers with 2xshreck, halftruck).

Obers in T1
Volks with StG44+MP40

I will love play this design, but who will play for allies again this?

I like your MG34/raketen requirement idea, but I think you mean Pak 38 and not Pak 39.

I also suggest a smoke ability be added to leig instead of the sturms.

They're already overburdened with duties, having only one Sturm squad with smoke on the field will not be effective or enough. That or give it to volks since they're more numerous.

The sidetech to the HQ is also interesting, I also noticed you have a balance mod on the workshop, have you tried to make an upgrade that mans the flak on the Panzer HQ?

Just wondering if it's possible, that's all, I'm getting tired of people saying that the OKW still gets freebies.

Fortunately wet dreams are nothing more than wet dreams...