British Mortar Pit Suggestion

Alright so, seeing as the Winter Balance Patch is about to release soon (I hope), I thought it might be a good idea to start working on some of the other issues that need addressing in the next (hopefully) not so far community balance patch.

So the British Mortar pit, loved by campers, hated by everyone else, including mobile Brit players that don't like to camp at least most of the time.

Currently the British have 4 in-direct fire options, one being the Mortar Pit, the other being the Base 25 Pounders, the 3rd being the Sexton and the 4th being the Land Mattress.

Now if we put these in segments they would look something like this:

Mortar Pit, big 400 man power costing emplacement, plus taking up 10 pop, which you also cannot delete like in CoH after the fighting around is done to regain your pop cap.

The problem here is balancing this emplacement, you need SOME form of indirect fire MOST of the time so you turn to this thing, and as I've noticed, most British players center their camping strategy around this emplacement the most, while the Bofors is also often seen be campy Brits, the mortar pit is easily the emplacement which is built the most.

Now, you can't nerf it, because the Brits have no none-doctrinal alternative for it unlike their other 2 emplacements, and you can't remove it altogether, but you can replace it with an alternative variant of itself.

I've said this many times for the past few months and since this is the topic dedicated to the matter, how about adding a mobile 3-inch mortar squad to T1, and transforming the mortar pit into a garrisonable emplacement, which your mortars can garrison for extra protection and perhaps some sort of bonus at Vet 1 similar to the Vickers Vet 1 when it's garrisoned, that bonus can range to a flat passive boost to performance like fire rate, for example, since range is out of the question, or the mortar pit gives it 4 times of shells which the mortars inside can utilize, anybody who was in the UKF Alpha knows what I'm talking about here.

The next indirect fire option we have are the base 25 pounders, which if we're honest here, are complete shite and only serve as good area of denial weapons which when not paired with the Anvil Tactics, are even less effective, but hey for what you're paying, they're not borderline useless but I'd still prefer a dedicated none fuel costing default mobile in-direct fire unit.

The 3rd indirect fire option being the Sexton, a late coming "nerfed" version of the Priest, meant to be a mobile variant of the base 25 pounders that also comes from one of the least used and popular British doctrines. On paper they should work but they really don't sadly, paired with the Valentine they sort of work as an area of denial weapons but still, you need an artillery unit with a punch, not a mobile version of something which you already have. Too bad they removed the recon section as well as the observation officer from the UKF Alpha, I think those additional units rounded up the doctrine's roaster pretty well. The only good thing about this unit is probably the Creeping barrage that is nowhere near as effective as the Priest one from both this game and CoH.

The 4th and final option, the Land Mattress. Now this rocket based fuel costing and 10 pop cap taking unit is not bad, at all, and it serves as a good alternative to the mortar pit, but it's doctrinal, costs fuel, costs more man power than what a normal mobile mortar squad would cost and it takes up wayyy more pop cap than what a normal mortar squad would take up, plus with the constant complaining of it being OP I don't really think it will say as effective for much longer until it's nerfed.

Now these are my own personal and humble opinions on the matter, I only wish for a polite discussion and to hear and see what other people think, that is all.

Thanks in advance for reading my block of text and have a nice day, cheers!

Remove its vet imo. Every time one gets built it gets vet 3 and then insane range. So much fun to try to kill! Not...

Remove its vet imo. Every time one gets built it gets vet 3 and then insane range. So much fun to try to kill! Not...

Wait, does the mortar pit vet give it increased range? I thought it was just creeping smoke barrage, fire rate and finally more armor at vet 3.

But if we go with my suggestion that would mean that the ordinary mortar squads would get vet akin to the rest of the mortar squads, no more special vet.

The Mortar Pit could be a cheap, garrisonable structure increasing a mortar's range and decreasing its received damage. Brace wouldn't be necessary, since you could just ungarrison and move your mortar somewhere else if under attack. For a mobile mortar team, I see two viable options:

• The Ordnance ML 3-inch Mortar, using the USF M1 81mm model.
  Good rate of fire and medium range.
  
• The Ordnance ML 4.2-inch Mortar, using the Soviet HM-38 120mm model.
  Slower rate of fire and longer range.

One of them could be a stock unit in T1, while the other could be doctrinal. This would open up some new tactical possibilities and maybe cut down on camping a little.

Wait, does the mortar pit vet give it increased range? I thought it was just creeping smoke barrage, fire rate and finally more armor at vet 3.

But if we go with my suggestion that would mean that the ordinary mortar squads would get vet akin to the rest of the mortar squads, no more special vet.

yes it does. It also has the same range on auto fire as it has on barrage. You said in your OP that this unit can't be nerfed. You are wrong, it should be nerfed, but not very harshly. It's auto fire range should simply be reduced. You almost never have to tell this unit to barrage something since it's auto fire will hit it with its insane range anyway.

If you build the mortar pit on crossroads inside your base, which somehow is allowed and it isn't fair at all, you can hit 80% of the map without even tapping a button after it's build since its auto fire has absurd range. Your enemy can't dislodge it for the first half an hour because it is inside your base and it can brace.

The Mortar Pit could be a cheap, garrisonable structure increasing a mortar's range and decreasing its received damage. Brace wouldn't be necessary, since you could just ungarrison and move your mortar somewhere else if under attack. For a mobile mortar team, I see two viable options:

• The Ordnance ML 3-inch Mortar, using the USF M1 81mm model.
  Good rate of fire and medium range.
  
• The Ordnance ML 4.2-inch Mortar, using the Soviet HM-38 120mm model.
  Slower rate of fire and longer range.

One of them could be a stock unit in T1, while the other could be doctrinal. This would open up some new tactical possibilities and maybe cut down on camping a little.

The reason why the mortar pit has a greater range than the ordinary mortars is because it's static, if you make it mobile then there's no more need for it's huge range since you can just move it now, plus the range is why so many people want to nerf it into oblivion in the first place, that's why I'm suggesting this. I agree with you as far as the damage decrease goes tho.

Yes, Brace wouldn't be needed anymore, the mortar pit would just become a bigger trench in a sense.

I agree with you yet again, however the ML 4.2 inch mortar doesn't really fit in with the whole Soviet model thing, that's really the only problem I have with it, that it would require an entirely new model to work with and I don't think Relic are going to be willing to do it.

So yeah, the ML 3-inch Mortar with the USF M1 81mm mortar model and your suggested stats would work and look way better, plus I don't see how in god's good name would the Soviet HM-38 fit in the mortar emplacement lol.

yes it does. It also has the same range on auto fire as it has on barrage. You said in your OP that this unit can't be nerfed. You are wrong, it should be nerfed, but not very harshly. It's auto fire range should simply be reduced. You almost never have to tell this unit to barrage something since it's auto fire will hit it with its insane range anyway.

If you build the mortar pit on crossroads inside your base, which somehow is allowed and it isn't fair at all, you can hit 80% of the map without even tapping a button after it's build since its auto fire has absurd range. Your enemy can't dislodge it for the first half an hour because it is inside your base and it can brace.

Alright then, I might have forgotten or skipped that part then.

And no I don't agree on nerfing it, it needs it's range to stay static, or it needs to go mobile and have less range.

That or give it it's shell type abilities from the UKF Alpha, I just do not agree on having to babysit your emplacement in order to hit anything with it.

Plus the game doesn't revolve around small 1v1 maps, that's also what made the Advanced Emplacements counter-barrage ability obsolete on most bigger maps.

You just can't balance a unit around the size of a map, it just doesn't make sense.

The reason why the mortar pit has a greater range than the ordinary mortars is because it's static, if you make it mobile then there's no more need for it's huge range since you can just move it now, plus the range is why so many people want to nerf it into oblivion in the first place, that's why I'm suggesting this. I agree with you as far as the damage decrease goes tho.

The received damage reduction more or less compensates for being easier to hit, but I think there needs to be some kind of incentive for putting your mobile mortar into a static emplacement in the first place. Most 8cm mortars have ranges of 80/106 for auto-fire and barrage, so buffing that to 90/110 when garrisoned should be alright - the live version Mortar Pit has a range of 115, after all.

I agree with you yet again, however the ML 4.2 inch mortar doesn't really fit in with the whole Soviet model thing, that's really the only problem I have with it, that it would require an entirely new model to work with and I don't think Relic are going to be willing to do it.

So yeah, the ML 3-inch Mortar with the USF M1 81mm mortar model and your suggested stats would work and look way better, plus I don't see how in god's good name would the Soviet HM-38 fit in the mortar emplacement lol.

Some pictures for comparison. Ordnance ML 4.2-inch:

120-HM-38:


I do admit that it's a bit of a stretch, but as you said, it's rather unlikely that there will be any new models, so I don't mind some inaccuracies, as long as they are reasonable. It's not a realistic game anyway. The 4.2-inch could get Flares at Vet 1 and replace the automatic flare ability in the Artillery Regiment, to make that a little more worthwhile. As for whether it fits into the Mortar Pit model - that would need some testing.

Another option: Change the mortar pit to only have one mortar team. Reduce cost of mortar pit accordingly.

another thread about emplacements wow its just boring
there was one hundred threads about this and you still think there will be some change, good luck

That or give it it's shell type abilities from the UKF Alpha, I just do not agree on having to babysit your emplacement in order to hit anything with it.

?

It will still have auto fire, it will just not have the insane overpowered range it currently has with its auto fire. Remember, it can hit 80% of some 1v1 maps and easily covers 50-60% of larger maps.

Remove its vet imo. Every time one gets built it gets vet 3 and then insane range. So much fun to try to kill! Not...

It doesn't get "insane range" with vet. In fact, all other mortars get "insane" range with vet.

Mortar pit is always 115.
ISG > 100/105/139 (last one only on barrage)
Mortar > 80/106
120mm> 100/133 (it takes 2xp to get vet3, so normal mortars are gonna get more range than 120mm for quite some time)


Mortar pit balancing stats option:
Reduce AA range, keep it on barrage. Improve barrage cd instead.

Mortar pit OP "reworked" option:
If it can be properly implemented and looks well sure. But don't expect Relic to do so.

Keep in mind that indirect fire gets more accurate as units close in from their max range.

For the mortar/arti with the longer range, extra range is an accuracy boost.

But at the same time, the immobile unit, once out ranged, is rendered incapable. (Yet, emplacements still have brace to protect against anything that outranges them.)

In my opinion emplacements can work if they are built without crews, are capture-able, and only function when garrisoned with a squad. If the 'crew' which would be Tommies or REs were getting vet from the emplacement and could retreat, return, and repair the emplacements, there'd be a whole lot more room for interesting play.

Yeah, it is a perfect solution. Works well for MG emplacements, would work well for mortar as well (and likely Bofors and 17PNDR too)

yes it does. It also has the same range on auto fire as it has on barrage. You said in your OP that this unit can't be nerfed. You are wrong, it should be nerfed, but not very harshly. It's auto fire range should simply be reduced. You almost never have to tell this unit to barrage something since it's auto fire will hit it with its insane range anyway.

If you build the mortar pit on crossroads inside your base, which somehow is allowed and it isn't fair at all, you can hit 80% of the map without even tapping a button after it's build since its auto fire has absurd range. Your enemy can't dislodge it for the first half an hour because it is inside your base and it can brace.

yes, just like the cheaper isg. So isg should nerf alao according to your logic.

Give it it's old alpha shells back at Vet 1 (works automatically, no micro needed, unlike the Sherman's shells). Reduce it's base auto-attack accuracy and range (to be increased with vet), give it it's creeping smoke barrage stock (or just a normal smoke barrage), as the British don't have a lot when it comes to offensive smoke until the Cromwell.
Dramatically improve 25 Pounders/Pyro flare (give them a smoke barrage flare as well because of the above situation) in order to provide a more reliable non-doc 'mobile' arty.

Or just keep everything the same because the British can't have nice things.

coh2 was about mobile gameplay, but we have some glorious cancer pit and bofcancer. remove it, burn it, do whatever you want. just get rid off this cancerplaystyle

but what would be nice: IF YOU WOULD SET A LIMIT TO IT! like you did it with heavy tanks.. as you should also do it with snipers..

coh2 was about mobile gameplay, but we have some glorious cancer pit and bofcancer. remove it, burn it, do whatever you want. just get rid off this cancerplaystyle

but what would be nice: IF YOU WOULD SET A LIMIT TO IT! like you did it with heavy tanks.. as you should also do it with snipers..

My aim is not to limit the player but to provide a mobile alternative and give the player a choice he can make for himself.

And besides, you normally don't see more than 1 or 2 bofors, I usually never make more than 1.

But you see more than 1 mortar pit per game USUALLY, so this is a way of artificially "limiting" it as you said.

I made this idea into a small mod, or rather updated an old mod that did something similar.

• Ordnance ML 3-inch Mortar Team:
  Buildable in British T1 for 240MP. Slower rate of fire than the German GrW 34, but more accurate. White Phosphorous Barrage at Vet 1. Counter Barrage unlocked with the Advanced Emplacement Regiment.
  
  
• Artillery Pit:
  Replaces the British Mortar Emplacement. An empty structure that can be built by Royal Engineers for 100MP. All mobile mortars and artillery pieces can be garrisoned and receive a 15% bonus to the range of their barrage abilities. When empty, the structure can be garrisoned by the enemy. (Might be restricted to mortars only. Still playing around!)
  
  
• Known Issue:
  Artillery guns and heavy mortars can only fire to the front side of the emplacement, because they can't move or rotate while garrisoned. I'm not sure if this can be changed.

It's available on the Workshop:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=679152285

As far as artillery guns and heavy mortars not being able to rotate, I wonder if the answer lies in how ATG emplacements work. I wager when they garrison the artillery pit there'd have to be some sort of aiming and facing mechanism implemented to get them to function properly.

Although now that I think about it, instead of "artillery pit" why not "fighting position"?

MGs could be faced like in a garrison.

Infantry could use it like a trench.

This proposed mortar team could use it like a mortar pit.

It could be capture-able by enemy squads. It'd fit the theme of the faction to have static positions, and infantry are already sort of supposed to garrison emplacements.