brandenburg 800

I noticed that the Jaeger Light Infantry (OKW) and the stormtroopers (Wehrmacht) is one and the same Brandenburg division in different time

Jaeger Light Infantry - early period


Stormtroopers - late period

Nice catch. Gives some kind of historical reference to the otherwise bland and randomly generated OKW faction and non-WW2 related Stormtroopers. Though not very pleasant to have in the game badges of a unit that committed atrocities during the war.

Nice catch. Gives some kind of historical reference to the otherwise bland and randomly generated OKW faction and non-WW2 related Stormtroopers. Though not very pleasant to have in the game badges of a unit that committed atrocities during the war.

How so? What does it matter if they did? All armies in ww2 did commit atrocities, so simply playing a faction in this game is not pleasant then..

In the atrocity department, the Brandenburger were rather tame by WW2 and Wehrmacht standards, especially given the nature of their work. Just saying.

Interesting given Relic's general distancing from authentic elements that would raise these sorts of questions.

Wait so, the late war German Army receives the early war version of the unit while the early war German Army receives the late war version of the unit, I'm a bit confused here.

But yeah, they're using the same model basically with different skins, so there was SOME obvious relation.

The oak leaves (which is the symbol used for Jäger Light Infantry is a rather common theme as far as German unit symbols go. You will find them in a number of unit emblems and on the coat of arms for many units in the German military, even until today. I still have a unit emblem from my time as a conscript that features almost the same symbol (with two additional oak leaves below, but the three top ones have the exact same shape). I wouldn't give too much thought about that, especially as the late war Brandenburgers served as a Grenadier regiment, not Jäger.

The ingame Stormtroopers on the other hand are most certainly meant to be Brandenburgers, no other unit in the Wehrmacht could serve as an inspiration for that kind of unit in the game. Since the game does not use any reference to existing units, the step to give them a different name is an obvious one. This has been discussed multiple times on the forums (both here and the official forums) by the way, the discovery is not a new one.

How so? What does it matter if they did? All armies in ww2 did commit atrocities, so simply playing a faction in this game is not pleasant then..

There ia a difference between having to include an army of millions that personified battles of WW2 because you'd lose all historical relevance without it, and including badges of a small unit, especially one you could substitute with another that played similar role but wasn't known to comprise of Nazi followers or commit murders of civilian population.

Wait so, the late war German Army receives the early war version of the unit while the early war German Army receives the late war version of the unit, I'm a bit confused here.

But yeah, they're using the same model basically with different skins, so there was SOME obvious relation.

I think it is convention. We have Ostwind in T3, but they total produced: 43-45. And T-34-85 in the doctrine which produced more than 20,000 from 1944 to 1945

Wow, before i though, that this icons were Relic design, but they are not. They have historical premise.

Wait so, the late war German Army receives the early war version of the unit while the early war German Army receives the late war version of the unit, I'm a bit confused here.

I don't even know, is this design issue and should be fixed or not.

There ia a difference between having to include an army of millions that personified battles of WW2 because you'd lose all historical relevance without it, and including badges of a small unit, especially one you could substitute with another that played similar role but wasn't known to comprise of Nazi followers or commit murders of civilian population.

I am missing the point here, units that killed civilians should not be included in the game?

How about those RAF heavy bombers of Air supremacy operation that historically killed hundred of thousand of civilian in single air-raid in Dresden? Should you complaining about them being included the game also?

War is terrible and in WW II all unit sides killed civilians...

I am missing the point here, units that killed civilians should not be included in the game?

How about those RAF heavy bombers of Air supremacy operation that historically killed hundred of thousand of civilian in single air-raid in Dresden? Should you complaining about them being included the game also?

War is terrible and in WW II all unit sides killed civilians...

You obviously didn't read the post you were replying to.

There ia a difference between having to include an army of millions that personified battles of WW2 because you'd lose all historical relevance without it, and including badges of a small unit, especially one you could substitute with another that played similar role but wasn't known to comprise of Nazi followers or commit murders of civilian population.

In their own game (as opposed to modifiers introduced by posters) Relic stay away from the obvious snares (as turbotortoise stated), not least bcs they do not want to run foul of Germany's legislation, where part of their market lies. If Relic have introduced a design concept which links to any WWII unit which had a dubious reputation, it will almost certainly be by accident.

e,g, look at the lengths to which Relic went to disguise the SS as Knights Cross Holders in COH1. You see neither runes, nor swastikas.

The unpleasant truth for those of Allied heritage is that as we draw further away from 1945, the effects of Allied propaganda become more clear. "To the victor, the spoils".

e.g You wrote a thread very recently about the UK Commandos: they were created as hard-edged units which might strike as much fear, as their German equivalents in the SS did. It was not an accident that the Commandos were originally designated Special Service troops (abbreviate!), nor that their first brigade was the SS Brigade, until it was eventually retitled in late 1944. Commandos were designed to strike fear into defending troops on the Axis borders, and they did. Hence 'the Hitler order', which stated all Commandos captured were to be executed.

If you read '18 Platoon' by Sydney Jary, you can see how an ordinary UK infantry unit was given orders in advance to shoot any German PoWs on sight, if a situation went bad during the approach to Arnhem.

And there are many instances of this kind of thing. Maybe not casual, deliberate wholesale slaughter, in the way that some SS Units like Das Reich behaved at places like Oradour-sur-Glane, but 'war crimes' nevertheless on a lower scale.

If you play any game like the COH franchise, you have to pinch yourself and remember that gameplay>real life. You have to suspend moral judgments, since it is a videogame. If you feel morally uncomfortable, you should not play the game.

But of one thing I am clear: this game was not created for you to make those moral judgments. it is as far away from reality as you can hope: Russians fighting in France? USF or UKF fighting in the Soviet farmlands? Shermans and Cromwells taking down Tigers easily? Extensive deployment of the Landmattress? No! no! no!

I am missing the point here, units that killed civilians should not be included in the game?

How about those RAF heavy bombers of Air supremacy operation that historically killed hundred of thousand of civilian in single air-raid in Dresden? Should you complaining about them being included the game also?

War is terrible and in WW II all unit sides killed civilians...

There is big difference of bombing or killing on battlefiel than enslaving and murdering your own pulation because of race/religion/sexuality/etc etc etc ....

You must be animal if you do those horrible war crimes that some nazies did.

If Relic have introduced a design concept which links to any WWII unit which had a dubious reputation, it will almost certainly be by accident.

Well it doesn't reflect well on their design process if they snatched the Brandenburger badges thinking "Oh, look! A nice infiltration unit badge we can use for Stormtroopers and JLI!" without first reading up on the unit.

Well it doesn't reflect well on their design process if they snatched the Brandenburger badges thinking "Oh, look! A nice infiltration unit badge we can use for Stormtroopers and JLI!" without first reading up on the unit.

Maybe so. But I tend to the cock-up theory of history, rather than the conspiracy theories. (It's highly subjective, I agree)

There is big difference of bombing or killing on battlefiel than enslaving and murdering your own pulation because of race/religion/sexuality/etc etc etc ....

You must be animal if you do those horrible war crimes that some nazies did.

While any normal human being would set Tokyo ablaze in an circling firestrom so that no civilian would survive or would drop not 1 but 2 Atomic bombs on targets with no military value.

Let me give an example of some the other Leaders during WWII:

WWI Letter from Harry Trumman to Bess:

"Dear Bess:
November 11, 1918


I knew Uncle Samuel was holding out on me when your letter came not with Boxley's and Brelsford's. Two came this morning and I am of course very happy. We are all wondering what the Hun is going to do about Marshal Foch's proposition to him. We don't care what he does. He's licked either way he goes. For my part I'd as soon be provost marshal of Cologne or Metz or Munich or Berlin as have any other job I know of now. It is a shame we can't go in and devastate Germany and cut off a few of the Dutch kids' hands and feet and scalp a few of their old men but I guess it will be better to make them work for France and Belgium for fifty years.

Their time for acceptance will be up in thirty minutes. There is a great big 155 Battery right behind me across the road that seems to want to get rid of all of its ammunition before the time is up. It has been banging away almost as fast as a 75 Battery for the last two hours. Every time one of the guns goes off it shakes my house like an earthquake.

I just got official notice that hostilities would cease at eleven o'clock. Every one is about to have a fit. I fired 164 rounds at him before he quit this morning anyway. It seems that everyone was just about to blow up wondering if Heinie would come in. I knew that Germany could not stand the gaff. For all their preparedness and swashbuckling talk they cannot stand adversity. France was whipped for four years and never gave up and one good licking suffices for Germany. What pleases me most is the fact that I was lucky enough to take a Battery through the last drive. The Battery has shot something over ten thousand rounds at the Hun and I am sure they had a slight effect.
..."

Those seem like the words of perfectly sane gentle and kind person...

While any normal human being would set Tokyo ablaze in an circling firestrom so that no civilian would survive or would drop not 1 but 2 Atomic bombs on targets with no military value.

Let me give an example of some the other Leaders during WWII:

WWI Letter from Harry Trumman to Bess:

"Dear Bess:
November 11, 1918


I knew Uncle Samuel was holding out on me when your letter came not with Boxley's and Brelsford's. Two came this morning and I am of course very happy. We are all wondering what the Hun is going to do about Marshal Foch's proposition to him. We don't care what he does. He's licked either way he goes. For my part I'd as soon be provost marshal of Cologne or Metz or Munich or Berlin as have any other job I know of now. It is a shame we can't go in and devastate Germany and cut off a few of the Dutch kids' hands and feet and scalp a few of their old men but I guess it will be better to make them work for France and Belgium for fifty years.

Their time for acceptance will be up in thirty minutes. There is a great big 155 Battery right behind me across the road that seems to want to get rid of all of its ammunition before the time is up. It has been banging away almost as fast as a 75 Battery for the last two hours. Every time one of the guns goes off it shakes my house like an earthquake.

I just got official notice that hostilities would cease at eleven o'clock. Every one is about to have a fit. I fired 164 rounds at him before he quit this morning anyway. It seems that everyone was just about to blow up wondering if Heinie would come in. I knew that Germany could not stand the gaff. For all their preparedness and swashbuckling talk they cannot stand adversity. France was whipped for four years and never gave up and one good licking suffices for Germany. What pleases me most is the fact that I was lucky enough to take a Battery through the last drive. The Battery has shot something over ten thousand rounds at the Hun and I am sure they had a slight effect.
..."

Those seem like the words of perfectly sane gentle and kind person...

I never stated Harry Truman is holy or anyone in WW2. Also this writing doesn´t prove anything, its like if you said goat is god because it wrote letter claiming its god.


There were horrible crimes and tests both on human and animal beings but we all know nazies did crimes as well and proving that they are innocent or their acts are fine by giving examples of war crimes from other war nations isn´t right as well.


Or you wanted to prove something else by your last statement ? Because I don´t see anything. We shouldn´t forget what war makes and we should aviod it at all costs. Right now I think most humans forgot what happened or can happened and many of them think war is just a game, another reality, nothing what can happen to us.

There is not single reason why we should try to hide war crimes of other side or why we should somehow prove they are acceptable. I´m and I always was about teaching history as it was no matter how brutal it was because people need to know the truth. And even small things like making idealisations of war crime commiters is bad in my opinion.

I wouldn't gloss over thirty years of a military person's career, nor would I expect any argument gleaned from it to hold much value.

Looking at Hiroshima and Nagasaki necessitates the context of the war in the Pacific and the Soviet Union's declaration of war on Japan.

Letters from the western front of WW1 requires a bit of knowledge of the WW1. (By the way: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUcyEsEjhPEDf69RRVhRh4A)

The world wars of the 20th centuries offer careers worth of academic analysis and then some.

Nonetheless, I doubt much value will come from either political or historical debates, nor will discussion over Relic and CoH2's depictions of those politics or history likely be useful for the game.

How about those RAF heavy bombers of Air supremacy operation that historically killed hundred of thousand of civilian in single air-raid in Dresden? Should you complaining about them being included the game also?
War is terrible and in WW II all unit sides killed civilians...

Well said mate. Too often people romanticise the Allied side of the war.
I remember granddad once told me, as the Panzer IV's rolled past Belgrade (Yugoslavia), the crew would often throw whatever surplus of food they had to the people, because they were so poor...

*Snip*
not least bcs they do not want to
And there are many instances of this kind of thing. Maybe not casual, deliberate wholesale slaughter, in the way that some SS Units like Das Reich behaved at places like Oradour-sur-Glane, but 'war crimes' nevertheless on a lower scale.
If you play any game like the COH franchise, you have to pinch yourself and remember that gameplay>real life. You have to suspend moral judgments, since it is a videogame. If you feel morally uncomfortable, you should not play the game.

Major, I quite enjoy your rants and wall of texts because your English is, well English English.
One thing that doesn't fit in though is your use of because... Kind of hard to take your comment seriously whn u start using abbrviatns...

While any normal human being would set Tokyo ablaze in an circling firestrom so that no civilian would survive or would drop not 1 but 2 Atomic bombs on targets with no military value.

Fuck oath!
Glad to see someone else agrees on the nuke dropping thing...
You have no idea how few Americans can discuss this without getting all heated about it (not to mention the constant one sided bias)