UKF Snares - How to balance?

EDIT: There should be a ? in the title, I forgot to add it and now it sounds like a statement
...

changed the title to "UKF Snares - How to balance?" from "UKF Snares - How to balance"

Every faction dont need have all, what others have. Brits dont need snare.

i feel the same.

yes, okw got non commander HMG, med Tank but that does not mean we all agreed with it or that direction was right.

USF - ATnade / Bazooka
Soviet - Atnade / PTRS
Wehrmacht - Paust / Shreck
OKW - Puast / Shreck
UKF - PIAT


Of course I think, It's not too serious problem.
Because most UKF players can control games without any snare weapon.
But every faction has their units or weapons for similar rule.
So some players can feel that it's unfair.

The discussion is far from over. OKW didnt get snares til the removal of shrecks. Before that they didnt need them. Whith the new change to piats, i believe the brits dont need snares

Still feel OKW need smoke? What did it take for OKW to get an MG, a P4, flame nade? Don't forget that OKW has better tanks than UKF along with better AT options. Faust, shreck Mines and rak.

The problem is similar to the OKW base defences. OKW can yolo into the enemy base with a tank/luchs and provided there are no AT options, just cause havock. Try that with a sherman or cromwell (not even going to mention light vehicles) and the base defences damage the tank, then you will get fausted and killed by the base defences.

Back to why no snares on UKF are similar, Germans can push into their lines, knock out X/Y and run back, do that as UKF and chances are, you just got snared. The lack of snares gives no punishment to manoeuvres like that. "But you have mines!" I'd rather have a snare, mines whilst good are not reliable, it requires the tank to drive over them and they are countered by infantry, smart driving, indirect fire or sweepers.

By all means keep the game asymmetrical but give each faction the core stuff - Smoke, snares, mines and flamers. Think about it, if they gave flamers to every faction, you wouldn't have needed the noob nade to flush out garrisons that OKW struggled with but no, they didn't need that did they.

Did anyone actually read Relics own words as to the reason for unlocking snares faster for OKW? Even with them, they feel they come too late... Against what? The SU HT? But having a T0 AT gun isn't a good enough option?

Like I said before, maybe PIATS will fix this, maybe it won't I cant get games in WBP and the AI isn't exactly good to play against but stopping a faction from having a core tool is just plain daft. Give OKW smoke, give UKF snares, two fundamentals that each faction sorely lacks.

Don't forget that OKW has better tanks than UKF along with better AT options. Faust, shreck Mines and rak.

You can't be serious, i think your bias is showing through.

You can't be serious, i think your bias is showing through.

So they don't have better tanks and a shreck + fausts are worse than just Piats? Id rather an invisible, retreat-able garrison-able AT gun than the 6PDR but that's my preference.

Got anything to add to the discussion or just to shit post? Think I'm wrong, tell me why, educate me, have some element of forum etiquette.

So they don't have better tanks

Which OKW tank is superior? AEC is better than the luchs, P4 worse than the crushwell, comet is better than the panther, Churchill Croc is better than flame hetzer, Firefly is better than the jp4 ( JP4 does have better vet). So that leaves what, KT and JT (puma if you want to count that as a tank)? In the majority of the cases, OKWs tanks are not better.

shreck + fausts are worse than just Piats?

You mean the single shrek that OKW can get? Shreks on sturms never make that big of an impact.

Id rather an invisible, retreat-able garrison-able AT gun than the 6PDR but that's my preference.

Because you've never used it before and seen how many times it hits fence posts. Plus garrison on it is a noob trap until they fix hold fire and the only reason why retreat is necessary is because it has to get to 30 range to actually hit anything. Better to just have a normal ATgun that can fire from 60 range (from in the FOW) and just reverse if things are getting near.

If you think the rakken is the better than the hyper accurate, hyper mobile 6pdr, you are delusional and willfully ignorant.

Which OKW tank is superior? AEC is better than the luchs, P4 worse than the crushwell, comet is better than the panther, Churchill Croc is better than flame hetzer, Firefly is better than the jp4 ( JP4 does have better vet). So that leaves what, KT and JT (puma if you want to count that as a tank)? In the majority of the cases, OKWs tanks are not better.

You mean the single shrek that OKW can get? Shreks on sturms never make that big of an impact.

Because you've never used it before and seen how many times it hits fence posts. Plus garrison on it is a noob trap until they fix hold fire and the only reason why retreat is necessary is because it has to get to 30 range to actually hit anything. Better to just have a normal ATgun that can fire from 60 range (from in the FOW) and just reverse if things are getting near.

If you think the rakken is the better than the hyper accurate, hyper mobile 6pdr, you are delusional and willfully ignorant.

Which OKW tank is superior? If only you had a KT and why compare the AEC to the Luchs and not the Puma?:

Luchs > AEC at AI Puma > AEC at AT. The rest of the tanks are toss ups and trade offs, call ins though...

Pak 43 Vs 17Lbr?
StumTiger Vs AVRE?
Command Panther Vs Command ability?
JagTiger Vs...? Firefly?
Hetzer Vs well whats the point, its only good Vs infantry who even builds that.
Stuka Vs Sexton?
Crock Vs Puma/P4 is around the only tanks that the croc can skirmish with

How can you say Shrecks don't make an impact? That single Shreck has about the same impact as double PIATS, check here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg7YBF-nJxc
This was made before the recent WBP where PIATS now have reduced stats

I've never used a rak? Ever? Not even when playing as OKW? Every game I play against OKW if I decrew a rak I take it if I have the chance.

I would much rather have a snare and an average AT gun with insane abilities than a PAK without the stun shot, lets not forget, OKW armour > UKF too. When did I say the rak was better? I said OKW have better options which they do, more = better options and with the way they work, it's better.

You can have the best AT gun ever but if the tanks can always drive away, whats the point?

Id rather an invisible, retreat-able garrison-able AT gun than the 6PDR but that's my preference.

6Pdr does have a +50% accuracy bonus against vehicule, and raketens love to shoot ground, choice is easy

The rest of the tanks are toss ups and trade offs

So you agree that you were originally wrong then? OKW doesn't have better tanks than UKF

How can you say Shrecks don't make an impact? That single Shreck has about the same impact as double PIATS, check here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg7YBF-nJxc
This was made before the recent WBP where PIATS now have reduced stats

Because Shrek's come in on an expensive 300 MP squad for 90 muni and lock them out of detecting mines, where PIATs come in on a squad that's 210 MP and are pritty damn tough and spammable, unlike the sturmpio.

I've never used a rak? Ever? Not even when playing as OKW? Every game I play against OKW if I decrew a rak I take it if I have the chance.

Yes I agree, for the high cost of zero MP, the rakken is certainly a cost effective weapon. Also i can see why you think the retreat is so handy, if you're in a position to take one, its a key click away to make it run back to your base.

When did I say the rak was better?

better AT options, Faust, shreck Mines and rak.

Because this form has rules, i say nothing.

How can you say Shrecks don't make an impact? That single Shreck has about the same impact as double PIATS, check here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg7YBF-nJxc
This was made before the recent WBP where PIATS now have reduced stats

Was this supposed to prove that Shreks were better?

Because all it proved was that 2 vet 5 sturms took ~25s to kill a okw p4, and it takes 2 vet 3 sappers ~15s to kill a p4.

600 MP, 180 munitions (shreks) is worse than 420 MP, 160 munitions. I dare say, one could conclude that PIATS seem to be better. Weird eh?

Plus you don't take into account that vet 5 should not be compared to vet 3 and piats have 45 range.

So you agree that you were originally wrong then? OKW doesn't have better tanks than UKF

Because Shrek's come in on an expensive 300 MP squad for 90 muni and lock them out of detecting mines, where PIATs come in on a squad that's 210 MP and are pritty damn tough and spammable, unlike the sturmpio.

Yes I agree, for the high cost of zero MP, the rakken is certainly a cost effective weapon. Also i can see why you think the retreat is so handy, if you're in a position to take one, its a key click away to make it run back to your base.

Because this form has rules, i say nothing.

So you agree that you were originally wrong then? OKW doesn't have better tanks than UKF

No, I simply can't be arsed to explain to you how one tank performs better at AI/AT than another as a trade off because you will just straw man whatever I say is weak/strong, note the tanks you failed to comment on.

I said the rak was a better option not a better AT, being able to cloak and garrison is more advantageous than just being an AT gun, and I missed this earlier where you claimed you need to get close to use them... If only they could sneak up to a decent range and then fire.

Because Shrek's come in on an expensive 300 MP squad for 90 muni and lock them out of detecting mines, where PIATs come in on a squad that's 210 MP and are pritty damn tough and spammable, unlike the sturmpio.

Engies are only tough with anvil upgrade, otherwise they are worse than sturms, you put a detector and 2 piats on your engie squad you have 1 member with a sten, you have no AI and thats expensive as fuck, 130 muni, 200 if you go anvil.

Yes I agree, for the high cost of zero MP, the rakken is certainly a cost effective weapon. Also i can see why you think the retreat is so handy, if you're in a position to take one, its a key click away to make it run back to your base.

Just ignore where I said I in games play as OKW, that's fine. I didn't realise it was free, not like I will ever reinforce the squad that took it but that's beside the point

Because this form has rules, i say nothing.
Please stick to that.

Was this supposed to prove that Shreks were better?

Because all it proved was that 2 vet 5 sturms took ~25s to kill a okw p4, and it takes 2 vet 3 sappers ~15s to kill a p4.

600 MP, 180 munitions (shreks) is worse than 420 MP, 160 munitions. I dare say, one could conclude that PIATS seem to be better. Weird eh?

Plus you don't take into account that vet 5 should not be compared to vet 3 and piats have 45 range.

It's to show they are similar which it does.

This was BEFORE Piats were nerfed, the timing was not 15 seconds, it was 20 seconds for the first tank to die by PIATS and 28 for the first tank to die via Shrecks, NOT taking into consideration RNG and the fact they were shooting at a P4 but whatever. You will think of something to excuse that.

Are you actually saying that PIATS are better then shrecks?

with the new piats brits should be fine without snares. The part i agree with you is punishing early unfair base rushes, if thats the case i'd make the brit bunkers in base effective vs's light vehicles like OKW's flak.

It's to show they are similar which it does.

Killing something roughly 1/3 faster for much cheaper is a weird way to say similar. Either way, that video no where near showed your presumption that shreks are better.

From that controlled experiment, yes in that case piats are better? How could you not say that when you video shows that they perform better, in every measure of the word?

Killing something roughly 1/3 faster for much cheaper is a weird way to say similar. Either way, that video no where near showed your presumption that shreks are better.

From that controlled experiment, yes in that case piats are better? How could you not say that when you video shows that they perform better, in every measure of the word?

Lets not forget that Shrek auto aim, and piats dont for now

with the new piats brits should be fine without snares. The part i agree with you is punishing early unfair base rushes, if thats the case i'd make the brit bunkers in base effective vs's light vehicles like OKW's flak.

Aye, like I said in my OP the homing PIATS will help but Idk by how much, I have yet to test it out VS a human player in WBP. If I'm wrong and snares aren't needed thanks to the new PIAT then great but its nice to think in case they don't, hence the thread. I mean for lack of a better comparison, aren't they just re textured zooks now with the super duper ability to fire over shot blockers? and USF get snares with no complaint...

Killing something roughly 1/3 faster for much cheaper is a weird way to say similar. Either way, that video no where near showed your presumption that shreks are better.

From that controlled experiment, yes in that case piats are better? How could you not say that when you video shows that they perform better, in every measure of the word?

Much cheaper? They cost more (50 each), there are two remember, or, would you rather me show you a demonstration of 1 PIAT Vs 1 Shreck They are more expensive, makes the squad less viable as AI unit when double equipped (Which they need to be to be effective) and kills it even slower in the current WBP preview so..

EDIT: Lets also not forget now that the Rak is getting a buff this patch...

Lets not forget that Shrek auto aim, and piats dont for now

That video and comment he made was in regards to WPB pal, where PIATS do home, I believe they do in the version the video was shot in.

That video and comment he made was in regards to WPB pal, where PIATS do home, I believe they do in the version the video was shot in.

apologize !

That video and comment he made was in regards to WPB pal, where PIATS do home, I believe they do in the version the video was shot in.

If this was the v1.0 you are correct.

I think there's a missconception here between WBP and live. Whatever insaneHoshi says seems to be more to what LIVE looks like while you are exclusively talking about WBP.

If we talk about LIVE:
UKF vehicles > OKW vehicles "in general". Same with AT options, mostly due to having a reliable AT gun + PIAT attack ground combo for late game + cheap engineer (cause they get vet3 due to PIATS). AEC-Crushwell-Comet vs P2-Puma-Cromwell-Comet is what you'll see 90% of the time.

Show Spoiler

If we talk about WBP:
Yeah, most things have changed for better. Still:
-Overall non vehicle AT options should be equalized. Pounder is still better than rak, PIATS are more affordable to use than schreck (you need at least 1 sweeper) but OKW still get easy to use snare which puts both factions on equal level.
-Vehicle wise it remains the same with the exception of AEC = P2/Puma and FF > JPIV (FF is more reliable and cheese hasn't been nerf)

If an AT nade like snare is to be implemented on the base faction non doctrinally, then you first have to take a look at Pounder bonus accuracy, Cromwell, Comet, late game IS double LMG performance.