OKW Minesweepers vs Demo Charges.

demos have as much counterplay as comets do

Prepare yourself for the Axis fanboys incoming saying, OH! here comes the Allied fanboys...
4 years of this back n forth arguments.


Brainstorming ideas:

1- Reduce cost to 80, remove invisibility but only targetable with minesweepers (small arms). AoE still works. Minefield treatment.
2- Reduce cost to 50, can only be placed on constructible objects (wire, tanktraps, sandbag...) and buildings.
This are the ones which can be implemented. For other concepts:
3- A CE/Commando/AssEngi must be nearby in order to be able to explode it

Lol, I love you

demos have as much counterplay as comets do

Tellers, ost pak with stun , stugs with stun, okw command panther with mark target and raketens, kingtiger with support (jp4 or rakettens ), ost tiger with (stugs or paks), elefant and jagtiger.

Counters to comet exist. There is big difference between overpeeforming unit and uncounterable unit.

PTRS cons before nerf or windustry or tiger ace were uncounterable. Comet is only overperforming

This sound interest and dont touch 1v1. Dont you want start topic about this?

Dont whanna.

Demo's are stupid in a game about unit preservation when they can wipe single units with ease.

I could see demo's being removed.

I could also see demo's receive a forced timer (like airborne) so they can deal with structures and houses but cannot be used on units. They would need a serious price reduction.

Placing only on certain objects I think is a must so that units can at least guess at where they are when they don't have a sweeper. Sweepers cannot follow every unit everywhere. Demo's hand huge strategic initiative to defensive players by forcing battles at only certain areas or forcing forces to be split up and limited in scope of engagement.

Demo's could also changed to a field like unit that when triggered by a the controlling player exploded over a period of 3-4 seconds to give units in the field a chance to retreat, but was devastating to blobs which were in the entire field.

Another option might be to simply reduce AoE and give them a reduced cost so they functioned more like manual mines.

I am hesitant to say limit it to 3 models per squad since that will create some weird feedback where units will be standing in an explosion and will simply walk through it like ghosts. This is not intuitive to players, especially new ones. Why should an explosion kill man x but not man y? Mines get away with this because their explosion is smaller and the disconnect is not obvious in game play. Also does it really pay to set a demo at 90 munitions if you are likely to get no more than 3 models? Could still be an option though.

I think its good to just brainstorm so that we can have some ideas ready in case we get to address this item.

Make them at least visible if you stay on top of them...

You dont need capture whole map, you must watch about soviet pio, see pio capture points, send pio there, this game sometimes are about tacticks and moves with infatry. I just cannot undestand in what game modes you need 2 pio to find demo ? Buff minesweeper range is bad idea. Just need accept demo like fact.
If moders whanna nerf demo to stop wipes, should nerf all weapons,all bombs, all rockets, all shoots (hello ST) for survive 1 man for all squads.
Add soviet factions heavy tank in tier or make is-2 callin after all tier buldings, why not ? If we change game.

Vasa my true soviet fanboy.

Agree with GGmashine idea, reduce to 3 model etc etc or at least put IT behind upgrade, lets say 150mp and 15 fuel. It's stupid that faction which insanely float ammo have things like that,

Just me allow to add that ost s mines still has signs

Tellers, ost pak with stun , stugs with stun, okw command panther with mark target and raketens, kingtiger with support (jp4 or rakettens ), ost tiger with (stugs or paks), elefant and jagtiger.

Counters to comet exist. There is big difference between overpeeforming unit and uncounterable unit.

PTRS cons before nerf or windustry or tiger ace were uncounterable. Comet is only overperforming

osttruppenspam e.g. with stuff worth half of what you pay is just as annoying

Why should running around with cheap lone squads like a korean starcraft player be encouraged so much?

So nerf all bombs, all hits, no wipes from dive bombs, ST, KT, mortars, rocket system, nades and anothers. Lets make all factions like one.

Vasa my true soviet fanboy.

Agree with GGmashine idea, reduce to 3 model etc etc or at least put IT behind upgrade, lets say 150mp and 15 fuel. It's stupid that faction which insanely float ammo have things like that,

Just me allow to add that ost s mines still has signs

Stark, my true abuser. I can tell why soviet can float, coz thay dont have lmg/stg for line infatry, or you spend ammo for guards/penals only.
We still try remove things that need skill to use them or counter skill, lets make this game just for A moves, coz some players lame to think.

Stark, my true abuser. I can tell why soviet can float, coz thay dont have lmg/stg for line infatry, or you spend ammo for guards/penals only.
We still try remove things that need skill to use them or counter skill, lets make this game just for A moves, coz some players lame to think.

Eh Vasa, Vasa think for a while and try to put yourself on a axis side just for a sec.

I bet you would be against idea of addding demo to all factions as a basic engineer ability.

As GG said before it's mostly used not against blobs but vs single capping squads therefore i can't spead out my units all around the map which at the end it forces me to blob (with sweepers of course).

Eh Vasa, Vasa think for a while and try to put yourself on a axis side just for a sec.

I bet you would be against idea of addding demo to all factions as a basic engineer ability.

As GG said before it's mostly used not against blobs but vs single capping squads therefore i can't spead out my units all around the map which at the end it forces me to blob (with sweepers of course).

Ah if you just check my playercard to see how many have i games with axis.
So add for all factions non doctrinal heavy tanks. WHy not ? You whanna destroy factions thing, its the problem.
So blob, what the problem.

Yes, the demo charge is cheesy bullcrap and has to be changed somehow. I'd go with TheMachines suggestion of a max numbers of models that can drop.

Demolition Charges ironically encourage blobbing; the constant threat of instantly losing a full squad means it’s never safe to send a lone squad out to cap against Soviets without the safety of being escorted by a minesweeper. Instead, players can be forced to blob cap only around their minesweeper, especially in the late game when the loss of vetted squads is so punishing. Demo Charges only counter blobs if your opponent is foolish enough to neglect sweepers.

To make demos properly fill their role of countering blobs and destroying buildings instead of just being a super mine placed on points to wipe individual squads, I would set the maximum models damaged per squad to 3, (like how mines have 2) but then give them a massive AOE pin. This way they won't wipe individual squads out in the open, but they will still do lots of damage to blobs and force retreats by pinning. An individual squad will also get wiped if they are in a house, since the demo will blow it up and collapse the squad inside.

+1

totally agree

I think its fine, that demo wipes squad, if you place them right.

Soviet lacks in antiInf - Inf. And i mean pls, after you lost 1 volks vs demo, you will use minesweeper and its done with the demos...

Hope they will NOT fix it.

90 muni, whats about riflenades? or the Commandonades? They are cheaper and wipes, or the 15 muni nades from OKW so pls...

The single thing wrong with demos is that it can be blown up even if it is detected.
You can't defuse a demo as Axis without shooting it which takes ages on range for Sturmpioneers / Pioneers. If you try to defuse it with the minesweeper, your squad is gone if the enemy is not asleep.

Simply disable the activation until the minesweeper is gone again just like usual mines don't blow up in a specific timeframe (when they are visible).

Seems good...and make it slower for the minesweeper to disable - or reduce the cost of the demo.

Ehm guys? With Sturmpios you can kill a demo very fast alone with shooting on it.

Where is the problem?

Also when you saw one, a rifle nade from ost or any mortar can wipe it.

Ehm guys? With Sturmpios you can kill a demo very fast alone with shooting on it.

Where is the problem?

Also when you saw one, a rifle nade from ost or any mortar can wipe it.

Hmm...well, the tall building on the RHS of Angermuende just beyond the VP (or just before it, depending on your PoV). I was stuck in there with some Grens (Ost) and noticed some SU engineers planting a demo against the foot of the building, so I ejected the Grens. They had no chance to set up a rifle nade before SU triggered the demo.

Hmm...well, the tall building on the RHS of Angermuende just beyond the VP (or just before it, depending on your PoV). I was stuck in there with some Grens (Ost) and noticed some SU engineers planting a demo against the foot of the building, so I ejected the Grens. They had no chance to set up a rifle nade before SU triggered the demo.

ok special fall

But i mean generally^^

90 muni, whats about riflenades? or the Commandonades? They are cheaper and wipes, or the 15 muni nades from OKW so pls...

All of those are easier to dodge, even cloaked grenades to an extent as you can have an eye on the squad and at least move/ hit retreat. Demos really do punish capping/individual squads more than anything else by forcing consolidation to avoid being nuked.

It kind of goes back to the old general-purpose mines one-shooting squads. You CAN'T have a minesweeper everywhere and if you do, you're heavily delaying capturing/offensives to avoid wipes and spending resources in units that are non-combat(pios) or taper off and exmepsive (Sturms).

Furthermore cost is not a good indicator for deciding if it should be a full easy wipe with pretty much one option for counterplay which is sweepers or have some sixth sense for demos. If it was the case, why the heck do certain off-maps not kill everything despite costing more than said demo?

Regardless my opinion is demos should be far less lethal to anything not objects or structures, but make them cheaper so they can be used more on said targets.