Dear Relic, can I have a word please? (Russian history)

Funny fact is that from the start I already stated I don`t care how the Soviets are portrayed in the game, because I realize this is just a game

Right..

Right..

Go to the first posts and read it

Oh should I? Maybe you should go read some real books, and I am not saying one or 2, but a lot, watch some documentaries while you are at it. I know Stalin killed jews. But I don`t remember it to be the topic of this discussion.

Well in fact it is the topic "Russian History" and you mentioned soviets and jews being the victims of nazi propaganda and murder.
Most of the history books and documentaries are still influenced by propaganda (especially the russian ones, because of 45 years of soviet influence). I understand why you are confused.

Since this thread is based on hurt feelings, try to imagine how german people feel, when they are portrait as Nazi monsters in media all the time. It works as entertainment, because Nazis are the perfect villains (propaganda made them like this) and you dont need to tell the public about it.
However you hear any german whining about it? Try to grow a dixk and move on.

Well in fact it is the topic "Russian History" and you mentioned soviets and jews being the victims of nazi propaganda and murder.
Most of the history books and documentaries are still influenced by propaganda (especially the russian ones, because of 45 years of soviet influence). I understand why you are confused.
Since this thread is based on hurt feelings, try to imagine how german people feel, when they are portrait as Nazi murderers in media all the time. It works as entertainment, because Nazis are the perfect villains (propaganda made them like this) and you dont need to tell the public about it.
However you hear any german whining about it? Try to grow a dixk and move on.

So you want to tell me they dont? LoL.
But never mind that, I believe we should end this topic here.

To those who compares nazists to soviets (remember that civilian loses of germans are from both fronts, not only east one).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WorldWarII-DeathsByAlliance-Piechart.png

Well it proves you can paint a perfect circle. Congratulations!

(Does this image show, who was responsible for the deaths? Who are the victims? Which timeframe does it cover? On which historian its based on?...)

Lets stop here..

This topic was removed twice from coh2 official forum without an explanation.

and you wonder why it was closed ? xD

this thread should be closed ASAP, same for the metacritic score thread.

FFS.

The game (and the big picture of the war) is not about civilians. It is about soldiers fighting in the frontline, not in the rearguard and not soldiers doing anything with civilians.

The only time when the frontline is about civilians is when strikes are conducted. For instance, the V1 strikes and the bombing raids on cities by the British and Americans.

Also, hmm, metacritic - I doubt that many ppl would have bought the game

Well it proves you can paint a perfect circle. Congratulations!

(Does this image show, who was responsible for the deaths? Who are the victims? Which timeframe does it cover? On which historian its based on?...)

Lets stop here..

My God man, is it so hard work for you to follow the article this picture attached to, or what?

puh, there are tons of games out there that descripe every single German as pure evil. Well, I live with that. Got used to it.
Now in this game, Russians get their beating.

Once again, a simple reminder to keep it civil in this thread. Less aggressive reactions against other users and less insulting tone, please. If you have a personal story to tell, or some good knowledge to share, then by all means do so. Just tone down the flames!

not everyone in german military was a nazi. (its naive to believe that.) they may have been the head political force but that isn't everyone to think that is silly.

war isn't in black and white (like our governments would love us to believe.) but in pixelated shades of grey.

Thank you, so many people don't understand this. Ive read a lot of different books about the eastern front. Both sides committed terrible crimes. Yet there was incredible bravery and heroism and kindness from both sides as well. War brings out the worst and best in humanity. Ive read stories about Wehrmacht officers having SS arrested for shooting civilians, German soldiers saving civilians from the rear echelon murder squads (einsatzgruppen) which had large contingents of osttruppen in them. Stalin didn't sign the Geneva Convention so Hitler did not feel bound by it when fighting the Russians. Neither side is blameless in the horror.

*I agree CombatMuffin you are 100% correct.
Just a side note, the Wehrmacht hated the SS because they had ZERO control over them, what units where in their Field of Operation, they always had the best equipment and supplies and were atonimous. The SS where their own entity, they had their own hierarchy, hospitals, training schools etc. They were a paramility group for the Nazi empire.

Thank you, so many people don't understand this. Ive read a lot of different books about the eastern front. Both sides committed terrible crimes. Yet there was incredible bravery and heroism and kindness from both sides as well. War brings out the worst and best in humanity. Ive read stories about Wehrmacht officers having SS arrested for shooting civilians, German soldiers saving civilians from the rear echelon murder squads (einsatzgruppen) which had large contingents of osttruppen in them. Stalin didn't sign the Geneva Convention so Hitler did not feel bound by it when fighting the Russians. Neither side is blameless in the horror.

Very true. And by the way, after war germans payed huge price for it. As man born in USSR I feel huge respect to your people after this war till now (you are from Germany as I understand). In fact, both our people believed in false leaders (no matter who was worse).
The only thing that frustrates me - some third side that speculates for marketing.

Hello there, dudes and dudettes.
I'd like to put in a few words to clarify the russian vision on the subject.
'Warning - wall of text inbound!'

'It is just a game, so what now?'.
Well, if you put it that a way 'Mein Kampf' is just a book. Nazi swastika is just a picture. Goebbels' speeches were well-thought and great [from the nationalism point].
Do I have to remind you why that's all banned?
Videogames now are a whole new start for the mass media. As a school teacher back in Russia I can tell that lots of people actually do believe what they get from games.
Not just <18 kids, you see.

'The story is fictional, so there is no need to be bold w/ it.'
Tell that to the Relics, kk? They were approached at least a dozen times with one simple idea - make a disclaimer before the campaign starts. The one that's like 'story is fictional and may be utterly offensive to you. Do you wish to continue?'

But devs keep saying that the story is all authentic. And it's so much rage because of the Relics' behavior, see?

Conflict could be solved before russians go demand devs' heads, blame Relics on all the shitstorm now.

But the story is all true! It really was like that, I've read that in a book!
Well I'd like to see those books. Not every book is correct on making an image on something, right?
If you want to do a game on such a big topic go ask historians to do a documentary research. And you better criticize the sources before getting them into use, as there are lots of lies about the WWII.

Relics 'd told that the plot is based on Vasily Grossman's books. Funny stuff is his books have a little common with the plot, and these plot parts are not what the game is hated for.

CoH 2 game is a multiplayer one. Singleplayer is just an addon that shouldn't be really important to the player anyway.
Well, it was well said before so I'm going to quote that part from here:
"Many people say CoH2 isn't a really SP-oriented game, well, maybe that's right. I don't really care for a single simple reason: CoH2 is a single product that has both multiplayer and singleplayer. And as far as it does, the multiplayer can't be judged apart from sp campaign.

Let's get some little illustration here.
Think of an ordinary healthy man that lives his life. He's engaged in all sorts of stuff here and there, he has awesome looks and pretty epic tell-a-tale skills. That's CoH1.

Now cripple that guy! Take away the left hand from the poor thing. He's still able to perform most of the one-handed operations, right? In fact, that man can be great at doing some things.
But he's still handicapped."

Kids are playing a 18+ game? Blame the parents!
Well you surely have an interesting point over there. I'd ask a few things though.
1. Is there a country where this problem is completely solved? I mean, the unauthorized access to a random 18+ game/film/whatever by inadults? No laughs, go get me an example.
No example? Hehe, that's my point there.
2. It's not about the kids only. 18 years isn't an age most people think for themselves, that's why most really caring countries have the adult status start from 21 y.o.

Well, I don't think russians were as bad as nazis back there in WWII. But there warcrimes soviets have to admit! Otherwise I'll be crying out loud on how nationalists are whitening the history!
War is war and it never changes, yes.
Though as I remember game's called 'Company of Heroes', right?

It's a bit hard for Russian to understand how those sick bastards and cowards can be ever related to 'Heroes'. We have a standard on that, you know.
Our heroes may look like Ultramarines to you, but, well, that's a Russian tradition. Offending traditions w/ 'bittersweet endings' and 'wartime truth' is never good.

Aaaand there's more to it.
You're talking of truth and warcrimes? Do I have to remind how other allies treated Germans back in the War? Do I really have to put in pictures and docs on american POV camps and mass murders?

Find me an example of that in CoH. Oh, there is nothing?
And you can't still get why Russians are so pissed off?

But come on, it's just nationalism, yeah. /sm

Well, anyway, it's just a bunch of people arguing. Mindless indoctrinated patriots bashing the Metacritic and Gamestop rankings won't change anything.

First of all, if you say that - you know nothing of Russia or other CIS countries.
1. There is a real storm coming in mass media. People are not rioting the streets yet, but they surely do demands to ban the game from Russia at least. TV and news portals are discussing the topic hard. Two petitions were started (here and here).
Do I have to say that there's a refund option in Steam? Imagine what Relics are going to get if the game is banned and people demand a refund. They've sold most of the copies in CIS and Germany.
2. If devs are not to cooperate and finally do something they're actually supporting the oppressing of freedom of speech in Russia. Why is that so bad?
Because when it comes to matters like that Russians don't care ab/ freedoms. They're maximalists at heart. So they gladly forgive the FOS rights and everything to get rid of the game and it's considered propaganda.

I hope that helps you all folks to understand the situation better.

People comparing the past game to this game are not thinking. They're made by totally different development teams with totally different source material. What a tragedy that the story telling has evolved since 2006.

There's a reason people don't like Russian gamers. I think they need little more vindication than the Russian/Ex-Soviet Bloc posters in this thread and those on other websites.

If the game gets banned in Russia, I wont cry. Though Relic might. For me? It means the DoWII and CoH1 community wont spill over into here and suddenly there's a massive drop in the number of hackers.

People comparing the past game to this game are not thinking. They're made by totally different development teams with totally different source material. What a tragedy that the story telling has evolved since 2006.

There's a reason people don't like Russian gamers. I think they need little more vindication than the Russian/Ex-Soviet Bloc posters in this thread and those on other websites.

If the game gets banned in Russia, I wont cry. Though Relic might. For me? It means the DoWII and CoH1 community wont spill over into here and suddenly there's a massive drop in the number of hackers.

O.o'
So other reasons are nothing to you, right?

And please clarify the 'different dev team' part. Why should people care who made a game if the plot sucks in their opinion?

Very true. And by the way, after war germans payed huge price for it. As man born in USSR I feel huge respect to your people after this war till now (you are from Germany as I understand). In fact, both our people believed in false leaders (no matter who was worse).
The only thing that frustrates me - some third side that speculates for marketing.

Baron Karl-Heinz Helmut von Rogers has much to answer for, hailing as he apparently does from the Prussian aristocracy. He apparently still struts his estate, beating the p(h)easants, and firing at all and sundry with a rusty schmeisser, cursing the Canadian land forces.

@Curity: I have one more argument for you to counter, good sir

I saw it being mentioned several times that the campaign only demonizes the NKVD and state institution, but it actually GLORIFIES and HONORS the bravery and sacrifice of the common soviet soldier. At least that's the impression many western players will have when playing this, Russians may define heroes differently.

But think about it: You are worried about Russia's reputation, I assume? Consider this: People will rather associate today's common russians with the common soldiers shown in the game. They will most likely not associate them with the NKVD which is gone today. The common soldiers in the game which represent common citizens of soviet states are shown in a POSITIVE way.

You guys are fighting a game that will spread a better image of common soviet soldiers in the west. Currently the West has a rather negative image of them. This could finally change! And yet you are trying to impede this game's success. You fight the game that will redeem soviet soldiers. Soviet soldiers represent common citizens of your states. I think you're wounding yourselves here....

@Curity: I have one more argument for you to counter, good sir

I saw it being mentioned several times that the campaign only demonizes the NKVD and state institution, but it actually GLORIFIES and HONORS the bravery and sacrifice of the common soviet soldier. At least that's the impression many western players will have when playing this, Russians may define heros differently.

But think about it: You are worried about Russia's reputation, I assume? Consider this: People will rather associate today's common russians with the common soldiers shown in the game. They will most likely not associate them with the NKVD which is gone today. The common soldiers in the game which represent common citizens of soviet states are shown in a POSITIVE way.

You guys are fighting a game that will spread a better image of common soviet soldiers in the west. Currently the West has a rather negative image of them. This could finally change! And yet you are trying to impede this game's success. You fight the game that will redeem soviet soldiers. Soviet soldiers represent common citizens of your states. I think you're wounding yourselves here....

Eh, I'm not very good at quoting myself, really.
Though here we go, an explanation.

Russians don't really care what other countries think of Russians. That's because mostly outsiders don't know a hint on what Russia is like.
As Russia can be all-effective when it comes to basic trades Russians don't really care how to interact w/ the rest of the world.

We have our own traditions of honoring heroes. Russian heroes may look a bit overpriced and not-so-real to western thoughts, but, well, your people weren't under those conditions. Your nations simply lack the necessary experience of all-out extermination war to understand what people actually are able to do.

All represented soldiers ingame are not like the real ones back in WWII. They're more like westerners, dressed in fancy uniform, you see?

'No retreat, No surrender, No mercy' wasn't just a motto that random 'evil NKVD guys' were shouting in loudspeakers. There were no machine gunner teams behind the lines to shoot the retreating forces. Wanna know why? Because troops simply didn't retreat.
That's just a dirty cliche, popularized with 'Enemy at the Gates' movie.

Summarizing all I've said:
We're okay with history debates and everything. We admit there were some warcrimes the opponent can prove. And we have some experience in criticizing lies as here in Russia it's an everyday matter.

This game exploits almost all the dirty cliches that are existent to the moment. The list goes too high to mention everything, just the most pressing matters:
1. 'Human wave doctrine'
2. 'The lack of munitions and weapons' LOL the way Relics are picturing this particular BS is amazing. There's 1 rifle for three people for the squad of conscripts
3. 'Evil NKVD eliminating retreating soldiers'
4. 'Evil NKVD eliminating soldiers for saving the officer'. Just for you to know, the real, documentary proven stories tell there's a reward on that. Including a rank-up at times.
5. 'Evil russians eliminating surrendering germans'. LOL If that's like that where did the Soviets get 1,3m POVs just after the Stalingrad battle?

I say again, everything can still be solved by making a 'fictionalized story' disclaimer before the campaign start and the official regretting message from the developers. Like, 'we've had no idea of what really happened there and are asking to forgive us for the certain story exaggerations'.

@Curity: I have one more argument for you to counter, good sir
[..]

In short.
You may think that soviet people are pictured heroes in CoH 2.
In the real history they were a lot better.

And thank you for a nice talk here. It's a rare thing someone talks with Russians without a certain prejudice. That's really important to me.