Conscripts and Grenadiers

I feel that a fast introduction is required for so extended post, this post was written after a quite long period of PvP matchmaking and in a course of a few days from various ranked match game experiences with both German and Soviet sides. As well as some research of basic unit statistics of the game. Post is so long because, for me, it is difficult to explain an issue witount having a couple of good examples or explicit data.

Ignoring all other issues about whitch I will write in other posts I will talk about these units only, as I feel a lot of game imbalance comes from these two units. Because they are the main units used of early to mid-game.

Balance issues starts with conscripts, without an adequate Command tree and researched upgrades conscripts are worthless and even with them they are quite ineffective for the resources invested in them. They need way too much investment compared to German counterparts.

So… from what I have seen, Relic has created the model of pseudo equality in most units, for example the core units of both factions, conscripts and Grenadiers:

• Cost the same, 240 MP per squad:

• Do almost same damage, squad vise:

• Have the same abilities, being one an infantry oriented (Molotov cocktail and rifle grenade) and an antitank oriented (RPG-43 and PanzerFaust):

• Same ability to fortify positions, Dirt bags and Bunkers:

There are a lot of differences between these units but in the essence they are the same thing. This differences create very interesting breakup between factions that makes the game very fun to play. The problem is the way that these differences are executed.

Both squads cost the same but squad size difference makes units appear to have different costs, doing the simple math, it costs 40 MP per man for conscripts and 60 MP for grenadiers. Knowing as well that it takes 50% less MP to reinforce a lost squad member than it costs to buy a new one, making it 20 MP for conscript and 30 MP for a grenadier to reinforce. But MP vise they cost exactly the same but conscripts do less damage squad vise. Meaning that to be balanced they either:

• Must be statistically equal in terms of overall health and damage, because they cost the same to field and reinforce the casualties but conscripts do less damage while Grenadiers have more armor. Here are some ingame unit statistics :

- Grenadiers: Near-DPS 3.4 (x4 = 13,6), Far-DPS 1.4 (x4 = 5,6), Armor 1.5
- Conscripts: Near DPS 2.0 (x6 = 12) Far-DPS 0.9 (x6 = 5,4) Armor 1

Even accepting the armor advantage of grenadiers, because they are “elite units”, DPS values should be equal because grenadiers already have an advantage, better armor value, for example statistics shuould be:

- Grenadiers: Near-DPS 3.4 (x4 = 13,6) Far-DPS 1.4 (x4 = 5,6),
- Conscripts: Near DPS 2.265 (x6 = 13,59) Far-DPS 0.933 (x6 = 5,6)

• Or conscripts must have their reinforcements cost decreased to compensate for the lack of effectiveness, and to support the fluff of conscripts being “cheep” units, lost in great numbers. Because now they are equal to grenadiers in their cost but still lost in greater numbers, because of great Statistic disparity.

-Taking in the account that conscripts do around 88% of the damage that grenadiers do, their cost should be decreased by 12% resulting in something like:

-Conscripts 210 MP to field (35 MP per unit), 17 MP to reinforce a lost squad member.

To this point we have basically established that core units of both armies are surprisingly equivalent. Having in mind this equality, even with the minor imbalance of cost/efficiency, bothering thing to notice is the absences of upgrades for conscripts, other than by command trees. What I am saying is that grenadiers can be upgraded with MG-43 LMG to bolster their damage and if the player chooses to do so even upgradable with camouflage and additional semiautomatic G-43 rifles.

Similarly, soviet players have the ability to give their conscripts “Hit the dirt” ability which is somewhat different to camouflage but can be considered direct equivalent as it makes the unit better in a certain way. Also just like grenadiers can be upgraded with G-43 to risen their efficiency by the use of the command tree, Conscripts can be upgraded with PPsh SMG’s. But what feels strange is after all this seemingly equal upgrade and abilities, conscripts lack a default weapon upgrade. It would be more than wise to continue this equality and make available for Conscripts an upgrade of x2 DP-28, just like LMG for Grenadiers, as for example, here are some statistics of ingame LMG’s:

• LMG-42 does Near DPS 10.9 Far DPS 6.7
• DP-28 does Near DPS 4.8 (x2 9.6) Far DPS 2.83 (x2 5.66)

As you can see two DP-28’s are almost equal to one LMG-42, funny fact that,combined they do 88% of the damage that LMG-42 does, exactly the same number that conscripts do when compared to Grenadiers. So hence the solutions would be the same, either:

• Increasing the damage of the DP-28 to:
- Near DPS 5.45 (x2 10.9)
- Far DPS 3.35 (x2 5.66)

• Or decreasing the cost by approximately 12% (Difference in damage LMG-42>DP-28)
to 50 Ammunition (from 60) for the upgrade.

Another thing that is quite strange to me is completely unbalanced way of getting the abilities of Conscripts and Grenadiers compared to each other. The problem is that soviets need to invest fuel and MP in researches to make it possible for their conscripts to use same abilities that Grenadiers can have for free. It is quite silly but Grenadiers start with the ability to use Panzerfaust, that cost 25 ammo to use (10 less than soviets), and it can be used right away with no prior upgrades necessary. In the other hand Soviets need to research the ability for 125 MP and 25 Fuel to allow this ability to be used and when done, it does approximately the same damage and costs 35 ammo, 10 more than panzerfaust.

Strange thing are the Molotov’s. Molotov’s can be researched for the same amount of resources (125MP and 25 fueld) than RPG-43. In this case I can understand why the additional cost was added, this is because Soviet army can have grenades right from the star of the game, while German side will have them for free but much later. This creates a good risk/reward situations for Soviet players as they are investing resources, effectively delaying their Tech advance, delaying their armor or artillery.

So Basically Molotov research makes sense, because it is cheaper to use (15 ammo)then rifle grenades (20), it can come much faster in the game and the fact that soviets start with 30 more fuel than Germans, it is obvious that the cost for resarch is quite balanced, taking these facts in the account.

But RPG-34 costing resources to research is totally stupid, makes no sense what so ever. They cost 10 more ammo than German counterpart (panzerfaust), do same damage or even less, and bring no advantage to conscripts if researched early in the game. In my opinion it would be vise to fix this problem either by:

• Making RPG-43 do much more damage to vehicles because of it high research cost and the actual high ability cost. At least make 2 grenades destroy the SdKfz 251 Halftrack. What is the point of having wasted practically the same amount of resources to only research (125 MP and 25 fuel) the RPG-43 grenade that it takes to build the Halftruck (120 MP 30 Fuel). As for if it takes additional 4-5 grenades that cost 35 (140-175 !) each to put the halftruck below 90% and that needing to put additional small arms fire to kill it. It makes no sense, none!.

• Make it cost less and have it cool down reduced at least by half, because of investment that soviets must put in the research and also because of the lack of infantry held Antitank weapons. This would fix big antitank problems that soviets have as well as being historically accurate.


• Or make them make the vehicle with damaged engine move much slower, as now it makes almost no difference in their movement speed, must be less than 20%. Damaged engine should slow the vehicle for 60% at least.

• Or make them throw 2 grenades at the same time.

The problem is not with Grenadiers having panzerfaust, because they need it for the possible M3 scout car rush, problem is that it is not remotely useful for the soviet army have these grenades researched because it is much vise to use that fuel for the molotovs or faster tanks or artillery than to have those overpriced useless grenades.

• Making RPG-43 do much more damage to vehicles because of it high research cost and the actual high ability cost. At least make 2 grenades destroy the SdKfz 251 Halftrack. What is the point of having wasted practically the same amount of resources to only research (125 MP and 25 fuel) the RPG-43 grenade that it takes to build the Halftruck (120 MP 30 Fuel). As for if it takes additional 4-5 grenades that cost 35 (140-175 !) each to put the halftruck below 90% and that needing to put additional small arms fire to kill it. It makes no sense, none!.

How about one shot an Elefant?

Interesting analysis, and relatively objective.

Three observations:
-1) Have you forgotten Sov start with +30 fuel?
-2) Cons lack of a generic weapon upgrade is related to them having Oorah and Merge, as default.
-3) Cons lack of a generic weapon upgrade is related to Sovs wider infantry choice pool of Guards, Shocks, Penals and CEs (which are categorically superior to Pios, even at Pios cheaper cost).

Overall I find your analysis concludes that Cons vs Grens is remarkably balanced in a number of very interesting ways, and a credit to the Relic Dev team.

Caveats:
-I think infantry Vet may need some looking into.
-The effects of infantry bulletins are only just beginning to be explored.
-Infantry Vet abilities. I think the Flare Mine is good as is, but Gren Medkit is not useful.
(I recommend it be changed to a 20muni, 2-3s cast ability to restore a wounded model to the unit.)

How about one shot an Elefant?

Do you think that paying 125 MP and 25 Fuel, practically the cost of a halftruck and having the same antitank weapon is fair?

Also note that M3 Scout car cost Only 30 MP and 10 Fuel less than German Half Truck, and grenadiers can take it with 2 panzerfaust shots. Also note that using 2 panzerfausts costs 20 less ammo than 2 RPG-43 (70 ammo > 50 ammo). It takes 4 to 6 RPG-42 grenades to blow a Halftruck up 140-210 ammo. Halftruck is 30% more expensive but it takes 300% to 400% more ammo to kill it with the "same" ability as panzerfaust and RPG-43 are the same (exept that RPG-43 is stupidly overpriced and need a research).

Also note that it is more than possible to use Halftruck with flame projectors to counter a HMG, it is not possible to do so with Soviet M3 scout car because it was nerfed below ground.

Interesting analysis, and relatively objective.

Three observations:
-1) Have you forgotten Sov start with +30 fuel?
-2) Cons lack of a generic weapon upgrade is related to them having Oorah and Merge, as default.
-3) Cons lack of a generic weapon upgrade is related to Sovs wider infantry choice pool of Guards, Shocks, Penals and CEs (which are categorically superior to Pios, even at Pios cheaper cost).

Overall I find your analysis concludes that Cons vs Grens is remarkably balanced in a number of very interesting ways, and a credit to the Relic Dev team.

Caveats:
-I think infantry Vet may need some looking into.
-The effects of infantry bulletins are only just beginning to be explored.
-Infantry Vet abilities. I think the Flare Mine is good as is, but Gren Medkit is not useful.

(I recommend it be changed to a 20muni, 2-3s cast ability to restore a wounded model to the unit.)

Yes i have written about Soviets having 50 fuel at the start, but you need to take in the account that soviets need either 240 MP an 50 Fule for the Special Rifle command or 275 MP and 90 fuel for Suport Weapon Kampanya which is much, much more that it takes for German side, ignoring the 3 times longer construction time for Soviets.

You can compare it with Infantarie command that costs 80 MP and 10 fuel, Leichte Mechanized Kompanie 120 MP 15 fuel, Support Armor Korps 160 MP 25 Fuel, Heavy panzer Korps 160 MP 30 Fuel. Fuel vise to make all buildings for German it takes 80 fuel, only to make one building for soviet takes 90 fuel.

Even if you consider Battle Phases researches to have all 3, once again fuel vise, it takes 110 fuel, that is hardly more than it takes to make a second building for soviets 20 fuel of a difference, and even that is less than it takes to research either of grenade upgrades for conscripts.

Germans, if they chose to, can upgrade their bunkers to work as reinforcement’s points, soviets have no such thing, hence Merge ability. Oorah is equivalent response to marginally better default Armor of Grenadiers. So as you can see there are no reasone to not give conscripts some PD-28.

These facts continue to support my theory of pseudo equality.

and some noobs want to make this already easy, ultra mistake forgiving game to be even more easier

so you want a T0 unit, that suppose to be just a bunch of untrained civilian with a Mosin, use an ability one click and bomb up a full health 221 Scout Car?

damn it, if you want to balance the game making them almost mirror, why don't you play Age of Empire?

and some noobs want to make this already easy, ultra mistake forgiving game to be even more easier

so you want a T0 unit, that suppose to be just a bunch of untrained civilian with a Mosin, use an ability one click and bomb up a full health 221 Scout Car?

damn it, if you want to balance the game making them almost mirror, why don't you play Age of Empire?

So why untrainded civilians cost exactly the same as a bunch of super trained nazi killing machines?

A forgiving game for you is having much stronger units that cost exactly the same, as you said, untrained civilian with a Mosin. And on top of that, civilians with much that have much more expencive equipment that do the same... Right

If the unit is worse it shuld cost less. Nothing that you say makes any sence.

So why untrainded civilians cost exactly the same as a bunch of super trained nazi killing machines?

A forgiving game for you is having much stronger units that cost exactly the same, as you said, untrained civilian with a Mosin and on top of that that have much more expencive equipment that do less... Right

because balance > reality, if those clowns are cheaper with the stat currently, Ostheer have no early game, GG

if historical correct, those Conscripts should just have 2-3 Mosins per squad

Learn to micro better, I have no problem winning games with only those clowns running around

because balance > reality

if historical correct, those Conscripts should just have 2-3 Mosins per squad

Learn to micro better, I have no problem winning games with only those clowns running around

With all respect, you just replayed to my previous replay relaying on reality facts, so you can remember better, “untrained civilians”.

And now you are saying that “Balance > Reality”, you are making no sense since from the beginning of this thread I was stating that conscripts do less damage and have less armor value than Grenadiers, hence it makes no sense that they cost the same.

So if “Balance > Reality”, why for the same cost as grenadires, conscripts have less armor value and do 12% less damage?

What the hell you are even talking about?, no amount of micro can defeat a clearly superior unit that costs the same.

And no, for your information shortages of rifles where felt during first year of the war when ISMASH factories moved away from the potential frontlines to Urals regions. This game happens during the mid to late stages of the war. My grandfather was a conscript in soviet army.

210 MP for Conscripts?

This thread's a joke.

The "objective" analysis is frankly, wrong.

Conscripts do ~50% more raw damage than Grens.

Conscripts have more models than Grens, making them more resiliant to area of effect.

Conscripts have Oorah and Merge so they don't need a non-doctrinal upgrade when you can make them a Shock Trooper squad.

Molotov != Rifle Grenades

AT Grenades > Panzerfuast due to Oorah synergy + Shorter animation and less chance of disruption

Your near/far DPS values don't account for accuracy, cover, or abilities.

The LMG42 can only fire when stationary

3/7 Soviet doctrines have upgrades for Conscripts. If they matter so much to you, use those. And in 6/7 doctrines you can take advantage of the Conscript's abilities to Merge with doctrinal units like Guards Rifles and Shocks, to lower reinforcement costs.

Germans start with less fuel, need to buy their Tiers AND build their buildings, which is why some Soviet buildings are more expensive because they don't have supplemental costs. Fuel is also required at the start of the game to build Grenadiers. So Germans start off with an effective 10 fuel, need 25 to tech up, and 25 to build a Light Mech. Company. It actually costs Germans MORE to tech up in the early game. Soviets can skip tech, Germans cannot.

M3 Halftrack comes a tier earlier than the German Halftrack.

This thread, just, in general, is a joke. It's been made by someone who doesn't want to get better at the game because he doesn't know how to take advantage of unit strengths and differences. It's quite amusing, really.

If you have not read the post, do post a reply for it.

Conscripts do ~50% more raw damage than Grens.

I just explained that Grenadiers do more 12% more DPS and why with accurate data from game files.

Conscripts have more models than Grens, making them more resiliant to area of effect.

More models means more damage from AEO

Conscripts have Oorah and Merge so they don't need a non-doctrinal upgrade when you can make them a Shock Trooper squad.

Just explained in my post why they need one, and i have no idea how can you make them a shock trooper squad with no Doctrine.

Molotov != Rifle Grenades

Yes they are, just as i wrote in my post.

AT Grenades > Panzerfuast due to Oorah synergy + Shorter animation and less chance of disruption

Not even close, because you need to Research the ability and it costs 10 ammo more then panzerfaust, plus 5 for the Oorah if you like the synergy making it cost double, 40 ammo per grenade for the same damage. Animation is the same, 3 seconds.

Your near/far DPS values don't account for accuracy, cover, or abilities.

Yes they do because the take in the account the precentage of accuracy based on open terain, hens in cover German grenadiers would have even more advantage because their accuracy is greater.
THere are no abilities that bolster damage or accuracy for Soviets, only Grenadiers with teir Camoflage making Grenadiers better, hence your argumente is wrong.

The LMG42 can only fire when stationary

So what ? Conscripts can only fire when they are alive, and they have a difficult time surviving from one burst of 10.9 DPS weapon.

Germans start with less fuel, need to buy their Tiers AND build their buildings, which is why some Soviet buildings are more expensive because they don't have supplemental costs. Fuel is also required at the start of the game to build Grenadiers. So Germans start off with an effective 10 fuel, need 25 to tech up, and 25 to build a Light Mech. Company. It actually costs Germans MORE to tech up in the early game. Soviets can skip tech, Germans cannot.

Just explained that you can have ALL Phases researched AND ALL buildings built for Germans for less cost Fuel vise that it takes for Soviet to build 2 of 4 their Buildings

M3 Halftrack comes a tier earlier than the German Halftrack.

Penal Batalion also comes in the same tier than Grenadiers and it does absolutely the same, they are as effective as them. But they cost more, and when compared to panzer grenadiers they are like school girls. Hell, even shock troops thet cost exactly the same AND are doctrinal loose to panzer grenadiers.

The only thing that is a joke here is you my friend. First read the post prior writing an idiotic replay that states complete oposite from the facts writen in full extence. thanks have a nice day.

More models means more damage from AEO

Wrong

Just explained in my post why they need one, and i have no idea how can you make them a shock trooper squad with no Doctrine.

All doctrines but two have special infantry. Also, Penal Battalions.

Yes they are, just as i wrote in my post.

Wrong

Not even close, because you need to Research the ability and it costs 10 ammo more then panzerfaust, plus 5 for the Oorah if you like the synergy making it cost double, 40 ammo per grenade for the same damage. Animation is the same, 3 seconds.

You need to research it every time you use it? That's new.

Just explained that you can have ALL Phases researched AND ALL buildings built for Germans for less cost Fuel vise that it takes for Soviet to build 2 of 4 their Buildings

We need to max out our tech levels to play games? That's new.

Penal Batalion also comes in the same tier than Grenadiers and it does absolutely the same

Wrong. Penals have a slightly lower damage output than PzGrens with more durability than Grenadiers.

comscripts are crap, they are only good as cannon fodder and at nades. By mid game they are no long useful against vet german infantry only with hit the dirt and the assault package upgrade do they have any use. both of which are doctorinal based

Wrong



All doctrines but two have special infantry. Also, Penal Battalions.



Wrong



You need to research it every time you use it? That's new.



We need to max out our tech levels to play games? That's new.



Wrong. Penals have a slightly lower damage output than PzGrens with more durability than Grenadiers.

Go troll your grandmother, good day sir.

And just that you know, Penal batalion have the same stat lines the conscripts do, being the only difference DPS output, which is higher.

Cyridius, stop posting nonsense.

I'd like to correct CoZaK on one thing though, Shock Troops are 120 mp more than PGrens and never lose to them 1 on 1 (unless we are counting nades, and even then, shock troops shouldn't be stationary enough to get anything worse than a clip).

Also that Penals are great against vanilla grens, but LMG grens destroy them due to their low armour and individual hp, whilst at the same time it is harder to force the grens to move as satchels have very small range, and they lack the "Oorah" ability to close distances.

comscripts are crap, they are only good as cannon fodder and at nades. By mid game they are no long useful against vet german infantry only with hit the dirt and the assault package upgrade do they have any use. both of which are doctorinal based

I purely use those crap to late game and win, without any doctrinal HTD bullshit or PPSH

They are crap because you control them like a crap

no amount of micro can defeat a clearly superior unit that costs the same.

Absolutely, incorrect


and WTF Soviet whining for munition usage?

I constantly oohwa them and throw molotov at every engagement, rain AT nades at German armors and setting mines, still floating tons of munition

Ostheer? 2 screck, flamer HT, maybe a G43, munition are like water in desert

Delete

I purely use those crap to late game and win, without any doctrinal HTD bullshit or PPSH

They are crap because you control them like a crap




Absolutely, incorrect


and WTF Soviet whining for munition usage?

I constantly oohwa them and throw molotov at every engagement, rain AT nades at German armors and setting mines, still floating tons of munition

Ostheer? 2 screck, flamer HT, maybe a G43, munition are like water in desert

Oh, really now? since you're such a pro player. How should I fight vet 2 grens squads with lmg42 and pgrens? I keep my conscripts support and they still drop like flies even when vet3. Not to mention they carry around mosin nagants in 1944, they should have dp28 and other automatic weapons.

Yes i have written about Soviets having 50 fuel at the start, but you need to take in the account that soviets need either 240 MP an 50 Fule for the Special Rifle command or 275 MP and 90 fuel for Suport Weapon Kampanya which is much, much more that it takes for German side, ignoring the 3 times longer construction time for Soviets.

My Special Rifle command's cost 200 mp and 40 fuel and my Support Weapon Kampanya's cost 240 mp 50 fuel not sure why yours cost more.

nice analysis ! I didn't do all the number crunching but playing soviets feels that they should be a little cheaper considering how weak they are